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Ozz
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Rothwell
Joined on:
26-Feb-2007 17:18:14
Posted:
3 posts
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I know it sounds strange but I seem to remember a tunnel from the city museum to Temple Newsam pit. This was in the late 50's when visiting the museum with my father. Could this have been an air shaft?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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mmm. I have to view these so called tunnels with some sceptism. There was a b.b.c hidden leeds site untill recently. There were some wierd & wonderfull tales posted on there. It usually happens when some schoolboys of yesteryear discover an old mill stream or an underground sewer & over the years the story gets more far fetched. Tunnels for dangerous animals e.t.c! If there is an old passageway anywhere near Temple newsam i would have to say it would have been an old mine working since the area has a rich history of coal working. Untill i see any credible evidence of these phantom tunnels i'll choose to look at the most obvious answer..They do sound intriguing mind you :-)
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Ozz
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Rothwell
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26-Feb-2007 17:18:14
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3 posts
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I did not pose the question to attract ridicule. I distinctly remember visiting Leeds museum and looking at a set of locked steel doors, when one looked through you could see a track descending and feel cold air coming through. Was the collection of Leeds Museum exhibited somewhere else following the closer of the old one I wonder?
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Martyn
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Location:
Denby Dale
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23-Feb-2007 13:26:36
Posted:
116 posts
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Hey Ozz. no-one is into ridicule.
There have been quite a few apocryphal tales about secret tunnels, in fairness.
Where was the City Museum when you went?
I remember it on Park Row in the sixties, then it moved to the Library building.
The site in Park Row was bombed in the war taking out the front bit of the building which is why it was moved.
Then that site was closed and the whole lot was moved to Yeadon.
Next year, the museum will be moved back into the old Civic Theatre building and will be very different to the old museum, all audio visual stuff and interactive.
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anthonydna
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Leeds
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26-Feb-2007 22:32:28
Posted:
118 posts
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You can walk from the Town Hall to the Library/Museum building by a tunnel. I don't think they go much further though. It seems a very common theme on here though, people like tunnels !
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munki
Administrator
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Leeds
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25-Jan-2007 09:46:31
Posted:
877 posts
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The tunnel from the Town Hall to the Library has been lost, honestly! They thought they would find it during the recent refurb, but no sign of it at all.
Doesn't mean that it isn't there, though. The Town Hall is full of secret rooms...
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
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2638 posts
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Sorry you feel that way ozz. If you read my comment again you will see i'm only trying to make out the point that from a whole list of secret tunnels on another web site, people swear blind that they do exist, But when there pushed to show you were the entrance is to go in & where they come out & produce a picture inside-then they can't. I have no doubt you have seen something ozz. To construct a tunnel is no small feat. It needs a trench of at least 10'x4, Thousands of bricks & i would presume there would be some proof of these 3 mile tunnels been constructed never mind the disruption caused. There's no doubt that Leeds is riddled with old mill goits, drains & disused sewers, I'm not so sure about tunnels built for lord mayors to go running down & lions been herded off trains into secret tunnels! I was only trying to find out the secret Leeds & not the myths of secret Leeds. Fair comment??
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Ro-Man
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Leeds
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27-Feb-2007 16:23:16
Posted:
67 posts
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On a similar theme, has anyone heard of the Williamson tunnels in Liverpool? These are definitely there becasue I've been down a section of them only a couple of years ago.
The reason I mention these is that they lay undiscovered for many years as folklore and tall stories emerged. However, I think about 10 years ago, part of this sytem was discovered and a group of volunteers are currently excavating what they can.
The truth about these tunnels is bizarre. They were built by Joespeh Williamson for unknown reasons. Various theories range from him wanting to keep the local men in work, religious extremism and smuggling.
For the full story see the website http://www.williamsontunnels.com
I'd love to think that Leeds has a secret like this waiting to be discovered. Maybe the tunnels from the City Museum could be it????
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
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2638 posts
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I think you are spot on there Ro-man... I'm going to be adding my ideas of where one such tunnel is in the city... I need a few pics & stuff 1st.... How do we organise the dig afterwards :-)
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Beefish
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Leeds
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15-Mar-2007 20:50:17
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24 posts
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Hi munki - I've just seen your message about a tunnel between the town hall and the library. I posted a message the other day about something I found in the basement of the library 30 odd years ago - if there was a tunnel between the library and town hall what I found would make sense. Have a look at Leeds Library posted 15 March - no-one has replied to this thread yet.
Beefish
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Pocomoto
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 21:07:21
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1 posts
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In 1959 on a school trip with my old school Foxwood, I remember visiting the Leeds Museum in Park Row. I am sure the museum was where the Midland Bank (now HSBC) is.
During the visit we went underground to look at a real (or fake) coal mine face. This is probably what Ozz saw behind the locked steel doors. We had to wear a miners hat and lamp and go on our hands and knees in semi darkness to crawl a few yards to the coal face. This was so realistic I retained a considerable respect for the job the miners did.
I wonder if the coal face is still there or was it removed when the new buildings went up. Perhaps the mine is on the route of the mysterious tunnel between City Square and Civic Hall. What a sight it would have been to see the Lord Mayor crawling through a coal mine in his robes and dodging the lions.
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Aspidistra
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Location:
Leeds
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13-Apr-2007 17:06:27
Posted:
2 posts
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Well now, I remember my father telling me nearly 50 years ago that there was a tunnel ran from Kirkstall Abbey to the farm on the left hand side of the A58 just before the ring road. The tale was always post-scripted by "or so they say...." and "they say the tunnel is haunted by the ghosts of the monks who escaped Henry 8ths sacking of the monasteries". Allegedly, the farm was owned by Catholics at the time who risked life and limb to help monks escape persecution.
My Dad grew up in Leeds - born 1915, and his family were Loiners from the mid-late 18th century, and apparently he'd heard it from his Dad and so on and so forth.
I'd love to know if there was any truth in this - if it is true - it's one heck of a tunnel - especially for the time, but if anyone has heard similar tales or knows anything about these monks escape tunnels, I'd love to know...
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2677 posts
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Its a funny one this.
The Williamson tunnels in Liverpool had always been more than a rumour.
My other half is a scouser and she says their existence was more than very strong in local folklore and that all the kids in Liverpool were aware of their existence because there were contemporary records of their consruction (in the press etc) and that they learned about it at school on trips to the far more substantial Liverpool museum.
In Leeds these tales of tunnels from the museum to Temple Newsam and from Kirkstall Abbey to Wetherby road or town, depending on what you have heard, can surely only be rumour.
The existance of the Liverpool tunnels were always there in the local cosncience(contemporary articles in the press etc) and the tunnels were just there waiting to be rediscovered.Dont forget they are excavating these tunnels,they have physical evidence.
Yes i can understand a tunnel between the present day library and the town hall for the same reasons there are corridors below ground level between various parts of the LGI but one has to ask oneself WHY go to the expense,labour and time to build a tunnel from the Museum,which was on Park Lane to Temple Newsam and how come no one knows about it either officially or from someone who has /was involved with its construction/administration.
Firstly if there is a tunnel from the Museum to Temple Newsam then you would have to ask why is one needed?
I can think of no reason for this except to be able to move artefacts from there to a safe place during a time of crisis for instance during war and threat from invasion.No person of importance resided at the Museum so the collection would be the only reason one could speculate about.
As the museum opened on Park Row 1819/1820 then any immediate threat to the collection ,at that tome,from foreign invader had been removed at this time by the successful conclusion of the Napoleonic wars in 1815 so the next real possible threat did not emerge until world war 2.There was never any serious threat of invasion in world War 1.
As we know the biggest threat in world war 2 to any collection was from bombing, which the museum sustained, but the collection had remained there.
Any invasion by Hitler was nipped in the bud by October 1940 with the cancellation of Operation Sealion and if the authorities were seriously worried about the collection between 1939 and 1940 then a cheaper and quicker way would be to move the collection to a safe place outside the city at their own convenience (See removal of British Library contents to Thorp Arch) not build a tunnel from Leeds,3 miles in length,to Temple Newsam and remove it at the last minute for safe keeping following invasion.
The other question of course is where the other end is in Temple Newsam.
I know of no such existance of a tunnel entrance/exit at Temple Newsam and im sure that even it was some state secret in years gone by its existance would have been known about by now.
To have built one during the cold War(the height of which was after the museum closed on Park Row) would have been of no relevance because Temple Newsam would have been destroyed by any nuclear attack on Leeds and as for the second world war why,given the Germans track record for occupying stately homes in the countries they had conquered to use as headquarters,would you try and hide a collection of antiquities in another repository of important artefacts knowing full well that one German General or another and his staff would use it as their private residence/HQ
As for the Kirkstall tunnel i have also heard this from my mum born 1932.Although the route she said she was told was from Kirkstall Abbey to Quarry Hill,which incidentally is where she lived in the 1930s(coincidence or handed down rumour on the flats?), and not Wetherby Road
Now once again you have to ask yourself why build a tunnel from Kirkstall Abbey to either Quarry Hill or Wetherby road in the years between the 12th and 16th century when Kirkstall Abbey was in existance.
The answer is there is no reason.
When Kirkstall Abbey was built there was no Quarry Hill area as we know it, just a hill with some old embankments on it.
The boundaries of Leeds, at this time in the 12th century, were restricted around the parish church and up Kirkgate to what is now Vicar Lane so there were no buildings of substance on Quarry Hill during that time.
Quarry Hill was at best,described by Ralph Thoresby the first historian of Leeds, some 600 years after the founding of Kirksatll Abbey, in his book Ducatus Leodiensis; or the Topography of the antient and populous Town and Parish of Leedes and parts adjacent in the West Riding of the County of York, 1715 (sic)as having possible earthworks from the Romano British/Saxon era.
As for a tunnel to Wetherby road ,which was even further than Quarry Hill ,and the need for monks to avoid the troops of HenryVIII then you would wonder how much notice the monastry had that Henry VIII and his troops were going to come and take not only theirs but every other monastic orders land, farms,industries and possessions and equate that to how long it would take to build such a tunnel.
Given the technology in those days it would have been years to complete such an undertaking and as we know they had no such warning or they would have spirited away most, if not all of their wealth, to the branches of their orders on the continent or hidden them away in one way or another rather than diverting the resources of the Monastrys Lay brothers to build a tunnel to wetherby road.T
The idea though of the farm being a haven for the monks or anyone who was a Catholic sympatihser following the dissolution of the monastries and the decades of subsequent religious upheaval may probably have some truth.Most all family folklore has some kernel of truth in it,
You may well say im a cold hearted fact merchant.I am far from this .I am a passionate Loiner and am interested in history and always will be.
But i am also a believer in the truth and that sometimes you have to accept that ones own deeply held beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny and evidence.
If there was anything contrary to what i have written above then i would read and research the evidence presented and either hold my hands up and say "Got Me"or prove the opposite.
Isnt that what this site is for?
I
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Aspidistra
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Location:
Leeds
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13-Apr-2007 17:06:27
Posted:
2 posts
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Ah! You make valid and interesting points cnosni! Logic frequently got the better of me on the Kirkstall/Wetherby Road tunnel possibility; though I have to admit that overall the rather romanticised idea of such a thing existing appeals immensely.
I do wonder if the Wetherby Road farm, as you suggest, was used as a refuge for escaping monks, and that the escape route was given some sort of name - I'm thinking here of the "Underground train" that Harriet Tubman ran in the states to assist escaping slaves get to the north. As far as I know, actual tunnels were not used in this "underground train", it was more an expression of the spirit of the thing - perhaps the escape route of the monks was given a similar name and over the years it has become mythologised into a "tunnel". Or, perchance a much smaller tunnel helped the monks get out, say to the next field in the first instance, from whence they scarpered to the Wetherby Road farm.... and over the years the tunnel has been extended by the telling of the tale.... Equally, we know for a fact of all the existing and yet elaborate and improbable priest holes and hidey holes and tunnels within these old houses which were used to hide Catholics, particularly clergy, during the persecution - and presumably for all sorts of other hanky panky.
Still, I never go past that farm without wondering.... the very fact that there are all these myths surrounding these things is fascinating in itself to me.
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Well said there csnosi. I think you can dispel most of these rumours by just stopping a minute & saying. Is this REALLY plausible? When you think about the complexities of tunnel construction, They aren't built so deep underground yet none have ever been found while excavating for new buildings. Although saying that i am interested that the farm has been mentioned (Cobble hall) i believe it is. I doubt for a minute the tunnel to Kirkstall abbey exists although i have seen a few little interesting things around there that the Leeds gentlemans exploration society will be having a good look at when time permits!
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raveydavey
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Location:
Leeds
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22-Mar-2007 20:29:07
Posted:
1107 posts
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I think the use of the word "underground" is interesting and may well be the cause of such confusion.
Certainly the farm off Wetherby Road isn't far at all from the area known as Monkswood, where there is proof that monks were active in the area at the time of the monasteries.
It's also not a million miles from the "Monkey Bridge" which is discussed on the names thread, which again points to monks being at large in the general area.
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Reginal Perrin
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23-Feb-2007 15:22:12
Posted:
593 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Well said there csnosi. I think you can dispel most of these rumours by just stopping a minute & saying. Is this REALLY plausible? When you think about the complexities of tunnel construction, They aren't built so deep underground yet none have ever been found while excavating for new buildings. Although saying that i am interested that the farm has been mentioned (Cobble hall) i believe it is. I doubt for a minute the tunnel to Kirkstall abbey exists although i have seen a few little interesting things around there that the Leeds gentlemans exploration society will be having a good look at when time permits! |
There is no way that a tunnel built between the museum and Tempie would have been a secret. The engineering feat to build such a tunnel would have been considerable and it is ludicrous to even think it could have been done covertly.
Think about what lies in between, several hundred yards of built up city centre, railway lines, the River Aire, not to mention the amount of work since which would have uncovered such a tunnel.
Nah, not plausible IMHO.
To the original poster, this is not intended to ridicule you.
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rikj
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Location:
Leeds
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20-Feb-2007 21:29:42
Posted:
308 posts
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rangieowner
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Leeds
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16-Jun-2007 03:27:38
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528 posts
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Quarry Hill, Wetherby Road, Abbey Pub well that makes 4 tunnels i've heard of now! Cos i was told as a kid that there was a tunnel from the Abbey to a farm on Scotland Lane between Horsforth and near where the airport is now..! Yeah Right!
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farbank
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Location:
bramley
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25-Jun-2007 17:07:51
Posted:
106 posts
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My first job on leaving school [1950], was for Primrose Hill Collieries.
My maternal grandfather worked at Waterloo pit [Temple Newsam], for almost 50yrs.
As Waterloo pit was Primrose No.4; Mount Pleasant [Twixt Garforth & Swillington], Primrose No.3; Flateley Beck [Swillington], Primrose No.2 , and Allerton Bywater Primrose No.1. I think I can categorically state that the only tunnel to connect Waterloo pit with anywhere, was the small emergency escape gate [tunnel], linking it with Mount Pleasant.
This pit in turn was well connected underground by the haulage road, to Flateley Beck. So in reality, one could get from Temple Newsam pit ,underground, to at least Swillington. Not ever having worked at Allerton, and only 2wks. before transfer, at Flateley Beck. I would imagine the likelihood of a similar 'escape' route connected both these pits. So Temple Newsam to Allerton Bywater.!
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
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23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Well said there csnosi. I think you can dispel most of these rumours by just stopping a minute & saying. Is this REALLY plausible? When you think about the complexities of tunnel construction, They aren't built so deep underground yet none have ever been found while excavating for new buildings. Although saying that i am interested that the farm has been mentioned (Cobble hall) i believe it is. I doubt for a minute the tunnel to Kirkstall abbey exists although i have seen a few little interesting things around there that the Leeds gentlemans exploration society will be having a good look at when time permits! |
Sounds interesting that you are looking around cobble hall. I wonder if you would be able to find the old Roman alter near Braim Wood. I have been looking for years but to no avail!
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