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LS1
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1307 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Good to see you heard from the Author. Did you tell him we found the skulls Lee? When he wrote the book he didn't know were they were. So he only knows the folk lore version and no real fact as well then? The Crown inn relevant to the Foresters and the Crown & Fleece are 2 separate pubs. I don't know which if any of them are the pub in question myself as yet.
I've seen Peppers old Inns and pubs books, but I'll be interested to see what you put up Lee. I guess it could be regarding the elusive plaque perhaps  |
Told him, he was intersted.
Also gave me the name of a guy in his 80's who remembers the skulls in their original place.
Will call him tomorrow now as it is a little late now. More details to come.
Think the plaques trail has gone cold for a bit now. All attentions focussed on this one I think ;-) |
I remember the skulls in their original place!!!
You dont have to be THAT old! |
Should have said that this chap is also a Leeds historian so let see if he has any info.
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Geordie-exile
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Tyneside
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
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541 posts
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| slw wrote: |
I know that Ion Dyson has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread. Webster & Dyson were located at 60 Kirkgate
More info here
http://www.blackie-ltd.co.uk/History.htm
Sorry if it's already been mention or if the info is use nor ornament !!
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Yes, I posted this one about a million pages ago! I also looked up the company, now on Easy Road, and emailed them to find out if they had any history or photographs of the old Webster Dyson days but they haven't replied.
In regard to the legend, where did the mention of ammonia first come up? Was it in the original YEP 1968 report or was it just speculation on here? It would certainly seem more feasible that the pair had wanted to remain well hidden so had burrowed themselves well under the hay and just suffocated from lack of air, perhaps following a few bevvies!
Re the Thomas Clarell Chantry - he was the Vicar of Leeds in the 15th century who employed as his priest there the founder of Leeds Grammar School.
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Phill_d
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Well if the guys supposedly suffocated in the building with the skulls Geordie looking at what we have now it looks like it was a small shed with not much room above for any amount of hay to be stored. I wonder what the other guys think?
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cnosni
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Leeds
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Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Well if the guys supposedly suffocated in the building with the skulls Geordie looking at what we have now it looks like it was a small shed with not much room above for any amount of hay to be stored. I wonder what the other guys think? |
Well have been away for a few hours to do some thinking and.......
its not helped.
The ammonia thing ,i think,was in the evening post article,but its not the only variable to this tale.
There is mention in the song about them being given bread and beer,where did this come from?
Was it part of the original tale or was this incorporated into the song.
If it was incorporated for the song then it is an example where a perfectly innocent embellishment becomes part of the tale,and this is the problem with the story overall.
Though i have to say that the story,though elusive in its origin,does in fact seem to have the air of truth and general consistancy to it.
The circumstances of their impressment, by taking the Kings shilling, is an accurate reflection of what actually took place in the area during the Napoleonic wars,which seems to be where the sources (YEP) say it occured.
As far fetched as it may seem, that the skulls were placed there because of the two mens deaths,it would appear that it is the only known reason that they were placed there.
There is no alternative motive either known or speculated for their placing on the wall of this building.
The skull building has clearly undergone some rebuilding,a doorway has been filled in and partly replaced by a window.
We can see that the other buildings in the area have been redesigned in appearance and use and so with this in mind would it not be reasonable to assume that the skull building may have indeed been part of the stables,the entrance perhaps,and could it have been a little taller,the roof certainly looks a bit odd.
As for the Old Crown i cannot see any possible connection to the skulls as it was down near Wharfe Street,where the current Civic Trust HQ is situated.
Though not a million miles away one would assume that if this was the Crown inn that is part of the tale then the skulls would have been down near that pub,and not in the vicinty of the Crown and Fleece which they were behind.
For what its worth the tale of the two men and the skulls being placed there by someone to commemorate the deaths seems a reasonable tale to believe,as i said earlier if someone wanted to make up some tale about the skulls then it would be something akin to some evil sprite who had tried to entice the two young men into being in league with the devil and eventually take their souls,you know the sort of story i mean.
This one feels right because its simple,fairly consistant and as though yet unproved to have happened does actually fit in with events of the supposed time in respect to impressment.
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Phill_d
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Just a note about the bread, beer and been put up for the night.. Duncan told me via e-mail he has had to obviously elaborate on what he thinks may have happened. I'm sure he might say what he knows, but every word in that song has no basis of fact about them. I must admit I have never heard were this Kings shilling or ammonia has come from either. The only consistency to this story is what people have either read in the Y.E.P or haunted Leeds book. We know the author of the Haunted Leeds book copied the story from the Y.E.P as well. Nobody else knows anything at all about this story. This leaves the only source for this story as a few lines under a picture in the Y.E.P article of 1968. The kings shilling is listed only as 'legend has it' in that article.
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Phill_d
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I've still got Duncan's e-mail i'll post here to clarify the song contents.
*****************************
PS I must point out that there always were a few 'possible' versions of venue and circumstance
re the skulls/the men/the location - and even more holes in the knowledge, rather than proven facts!
My song is based on 'some' of the known, some speculation, and a songwriter's prerogative to embellish/fill in to make a complete tale out of half-a-know-yarn. In no way have I ever considered my 'version' a complete or accurate representation - merely the way I imagine the few facts piece together. Cheers - Dunc.
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cnosni
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2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Just a note about the bread, beer and been put up for the night.. Duncan told me via e-mail he has had to obviously elaborate on what he thinks may have happened. I'm sure he might say what he knows, but every word in that song has no basis of fact about them. I must admit I have never heard were this Kings shilling has come from either Chris! |
The Kings shilling is in the YEP article,1968.
The taking of the Kings Shilling basically says,"Yep i wanna join up",even if you didnt,i think it was Si,or Simonm who gave a couple of examples of how the recruiting Sergeants would come up and merely place,or press the coin in your hand,and that was it,you were the Kings man,and how about that Mercury article which told how the sergeants would walk around with pieces of bread/cake on the end of their swords to entice the hungry to take the bread,and thus an opportunity for the sergeant to stuff them with the shilling.
Different timesmate,different time,but we do know these practices happened,so the tale of the two men does have some basis in fact in that sense,and quite frankly i think as its the only story that is attached to the skulls then im beginning to feel that it happened,though EXACTLY how is open to speculation.
We can only hope to find some mention of the story,though i dont hold out a lot of hope,but if we dont look well never know.
Anyway,we are still going to try and get them back arent we everyone??
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Phill_d
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Geordie-exile
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Thanks for those clarifications. Since the earliest 'record' of what might have taken place is 1968, then as I suggested a few days ago it might be an idea to ask our journo to check the old internal library cuttings files at the YEP. There may be a source for the original article in there. The original reporter must have heard the 'legend' from somewhere - unless it was a slow day and someone came up with the story after a boozy lunch. Joking! 
I find it odd that none of the contemporary newspapers appear to have reported such deaths of two men in these or other tragic circumstances that might have led to their macabre commemoration.
Oh - and I think when the report states 'formerly' the Crown Inn, could it mean that it was the Crown Inn at the time, but later became the Crown & Fleece?
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Phill_d
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Well this is what i'm looking a Geordi. As we say there is usually a 'little truth' in these stories. They do get more elaborate over the years as we know. I just find the Y.E.P article to be too vague to actually understand what it is telling us.
The article seems to suggest the skulls were then placed on a building were the Crown inn used to stand. It also doesn't mention an outside hayloft but the loft of the pub itself. You can also read the discovery of the men's bodies as 'suffocated by them' to mean either the recruiting major found them, or they were found by someone else after the sergeant major had suffocated them for hiding from him.
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LS1
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I think in order to establish the history behind legend for the soldiers we need to trace the story to pre 1968.
So far all the people I have spoken to cannot get the story back further than this. Although perhaps Neil Dyson (of Ion Dysons) does seem to think he heard it before this...
I wonder if Arry has heard of this one?
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
Joined on:
24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2145 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
Well this is what i'm looking a Geordi. As we say there is usually a 'little truth' in these stories. They do get more elaborate over the years as we know. I just find the Y.E.P article to be too vague to actually understand what it is telling us.
The article seems to suggest the skulls are placed on a building were the Crown inn used to stand. It also doesn't mention an outside hayloft but the loft of the pub itself. You can also read the discovery of the men's bodies as 'suffocated by them' to mean either the recruiting major found them, or they were found by someone else after the sergeant major had suffocated them for hiding from him. |
I wouldn't put too much importance to this. The Y.E.P article the other day said 'For more than 200 years this ghostly pair of carved skulls took pride of place outside a Leeds City centre pub'
We know that this statements is not true - and the timescale is pure guesswork - but someone researching the skulls in 50 years time may not know - and would think that the newspaper had access to more info than they have.
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Si
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Otley
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Posted:
3395 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| Well if the guys supposedly suffocated in the building with the skulls Geordie looking at what we have now it looks like it was a small shed with not much room above for any amount of hay to be stored. I wonder what the other guys think? |
Well have been away for a few hours to do some thinking and.......
its not helped.
The ammonia thing ,i think,was in the evening post article,but its not the only variable to this tale.
There is mention in the song about them being given bread and beer,where did this come from?
Was it part of the original tale or was this incorporated into the song.
If it was incorporated for the song then it is an example where a perfectly innocent embellishment becomes part of the tale,and this is the problem with the story overall.
Though i have to say that the story,though elusive in its origin,does in fact seem to have the air of truth and general consistancy to it.
The circumstances of their impressment, by taking the Kings shilling, is an accurate reflection of what actually took place in the area during the Napoleonic wars,which seems to be where the sources (YEP) say it occured.
As far fetched as it may seem, that the skulls were placed there because of the two mens deaths,it would appear that it is the only known reason that they were placed there.
There is no alternative motive either known or speculated for their placing on the wall of this building.
The skull building has clearly undergone some rebuilding,a doorway has been filled in and partly replaced by a window.
We can see that the other buildings in the area have been redesigned in appearance and use and so with this in mind would it not be reasonable to assume that the skull building may have indeed been part of the stables,the entrance perhaps,and could it have been a little taller,the roof certainly looks a bit odd.
As for the Old Crown i cannot see any possible connection to the skulls as it was down near Wharfe Street,where the current Civic Trust HQ is situated.
Though not a million miles away one would assume that if this was the Crown inn that is part of the tale then the skulls would have been down near that pub,and not in the vicinty of the Crown and Fleece which they were behind.
For what its worth the tale of the two men and the skulls being placed there by someone to commemorate the deaths seems a reasonable tale to believe,as i said earlier if someone wanted to make up some tale about the skulls then it would be something akin to some evil sprite who had tried to entice the two young men into being in league with the devil and eventually take their souls,you know the sort of story i mean.
This one feels right because its simple,fairly consistant and as though yet unproved to have happened does actually fit in with events of the supposed time in respect to impressment.
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Yes, I agree that there must be a grain of truth in the story of the recruits. Word-of-mouth folklore is bound to be embelished/altered - it's human nature. There's also the phenomonen of Chinese Whispers. As they said during the First World War - "Send three and fourpence - we're going to a dance!"
BTW had a look in the Images of Leeds book last night and the skulls are in there (not literally, obviously.) I forgot to check the date of publication, I'm afraid, but the caption didn't tell us anything we don't know already. However, the picture (of the skulls in their original position) looks different to the one on here (slightly different angle, although I might be wrong.)
Pink carnation to red rose - see you all at 1!
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Posted:
2638 posts
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See you at one Si 
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Well this is what i'm looking a Geordi. As we say there is usually a 'little truth' in these stories. They do get more elaborate over the years as we know. I just find the Y.E.P article to be too vague to actually understand what it is telling us.
The article seems to suggest the skulls are placed on a building were the Crown inn used to stand. It also doesn't mention an outside hayloft but the loft of the pub itself. You can also read the discovery of the men's bodies as 'suffocated by them' to mean either the recruiting major found them, or they were found by someone else after the sergeant major had suffocated them for hiding from him. |
I wouldn't put too much importance to this. The Y.E.P article the other day said 'For more than 200 years this ghostly pair of carved skulls took pride of place outside a Leeds City centre pub'
We know that this statements is not true - and the timescale is pure guesswork - but someone researching the skulls in 50 years time may not know - and would think that the newspaper had access to more info than they have. |
Yeah, good thinking, Drapesy. (Were you outside the box?) Guessing at about 200 years seems a very good guess by the journalist! They must have known the story from somewhere.
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Lilysmum
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Location:
Guiseley
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28-Mar-2008 17:01:45
Posted:
470 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
Ha ha Brandy. I've just had a walk to the shop and given this skully duo a little thought.
Well after us all going skull crazy and researching like mad this last week, we can safely say we haven't got anywhere in the slightest
A little re-evaluation is in order. What we all seem to agree on is the skulls would not have been carved especially for these two men, We seem to think they came from some where else originally. Well in this case I'm just wondering how likely it would be if 2 men died and someone who knew about the tragedy at a gathering with the men's friends one day said, Hey.. I happen to know were there are two carved skulls in storage, this would match our 2 men perfectly, we can have them fitted in the spot to mark the occasion. Is it a likely thing?? It would be a damn good spot of luck if it were. It's not impossible by any means, just a little fairy story sounding with a nice ending perhaps?
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I have been following the postings on this subject and found it fascinating,I love a good mystery.Just wondering if it's known what if anything was on the site of the skull building way,way back say 1500's? because the skulls look very old and maybe were from a previous building on the site and unearthed during the constrcution of the present one and some latter day Laurence Llewellyn Bowen thought they would add a nice finishing touch to the place.Maybe the legend of the two men who died in a hayloft in the area has been attached to the place just because the skulls were there.I hope all the hard work being put into solving the mystery proves sucessfull
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Si
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3395 posts
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Hi Lilysmum,
Yes, that theory has come up before.
The earliest map of Leeds (c1560) is too inaccurate for our purposes, unfortunately, but a map of 1725 in Ivan Broadhead's "Leeds" shows buildings north of Tenter's Garth (now the site of the third White Cloth Hall.) It also shows the old White Cloth Hall, and is therefore our area. Again, there's not enough detail to tell which building is which.
A later map of 1775 shows basically the same information as the 1725 one.
Phill's 1815 map is the first map where our area can be positively identified (shows Crown Court albeit with a slightly different layout.)
The map we've been using most is the yard-to-a-mile one from 1847, and the map of 1906, both Godfrey's OS maps.
Cheers,
Si.
The trouble with mysteries is it's almost a shame when they are solved! Mystery no longer!!! The fun is in the solving.
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Brandy
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Posted:
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| Lilysmum wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Ha ha Brandy. I've just had a walk to the shop and given this skully duo a little thought.
Well after us all going skull crazy and researching like mad this last week, we can safely say we haven't got anywhere in the slightest
A little re-evaluation is in order. What we all seem to agree on is the skulls would not have been carved especially for these two men, We seem to think they came from some where else originally. Well in this case I'm just wondering how likely it would be if 2 men died and someone who knew about the tragedy at a gathering with the men's friends one day said, Hey.. I happen to know were there are two carved skulls in storage, this would match our 2 men perfectly, we can have them fitted in the spot to mark the occasion. Is it a likely thing?? It would be a damn good spot of luck if it were. It's not impossible by any means, just a little fairy story sounding with a nice ending perhaps?
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I have been following the postings on this subject and found it fascinating love a good mystery.Just wondering if it's known what if anything was on the site of the skull building way,way back say 1500's? because the skulls look very old and maybe were from a previous building on the site and unearthed during the constrcution of the present one and some latter day Laurence Llewellyn Bowen thought they would add a nice finishing touch to the place.Maybe the legend of the two men who died in a hayloft in the area has been attached to the place just because the skulls were there.I hope all the hard work being put into solving the mystery proves sucessfull |
arrrrrrrrrrrghhh not more conspiracy theories?
only joking lilysmum,i think one thing im certain on is that our bony faced duo are much older than the surrounding buildings,so what'if any' is the connection?? well the jury's out on that one mate
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Si
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Anyone remember those HUGE aerial pictures that were posted on SL a while back? Do we know when they were taken, because the skull section of Crown Court (between the Crown and Fleece and Kirkgate) appears to be intact, ie no car park - buildings! I can't remember which thread they're on - I loaded them to My Pictures.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Well this is what i'm looking a Geordi. As we say there is usually a 'little truth' in these stories. They do get more elaborate over the years as we know. I just find the Y.E.P article to be too vague to actually understand what it is telling us.
The article seems to suggest the skulls are placed on a building were the Crown inn used to stand. It also doesn't mention an outside hayloft but the loft of the pub itself. You can also read the discovery of the men's bodies as 'suffocated by them' to mean either the recruiting major found them, or they were found by someone else after the sergeant major had suffocated them for hiding from him. |
I wouldn't put too much importance to this. The Y.E.P article the other day said 'For more than 200 years this ghostly pair of carved skulls took pride of place outside a Leeds City centre pub'
We know that this statements is not true - and the timescale is pure guesswork - but someone researching the skulls in 50 years time may not know - and would think that the newspaper had access to more info than they have. |
Yeah, good thinking, Drapesy. (Were you outside the box?) Guessing at about 200 years seems a very good guess by the journalist! They must have known the story from somewhere.
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We must also take into account what LS1 got from the Dysons,though this is word of mouth it is however a source,put down in written form now but its memory origin predates the news article.
Once again it proves nothing,but it does move the origin of the tale closer to the supposed event.
Geordie it isnt entirely true to say there is nothing in the papers just yet as the British Library 19th century newspaper collection starts January 1807,so we do have at least another 5,possibly 6 years back to circa 1802 to check at the library.
So well see what the position is when we have done that (though i suspect it will take one or two more visits)
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Brandy
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LS1
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1307 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Anyone remember those HUGE aerial pictures that were posted on SL a while back? Do we know when they were taken, because the skull section of Crown Court (between the Crown and Fleece and Kirkgate) appears to be intact, ie no car park - buildings! I can't remember which thread they're on - I loaded them to My Pictures. |
A ha, I have them and will print them out and try to make it down for 1 today.
They are on my PC at work!
Also, old maps show this area as unbuilt on around 1700's
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Phill_d
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Lily's mam. I'm really glad you said that about what was there previous. This is the whole point I have been trying to get across all along. What came first? The Buildings at the back of the Rebop buildings? Or the Rebop buildings and the buildings behind were simply fitted in? The odd triangle shape may give us clues. Answer this chicken or the egg comes first question and we may solve this puzzle. There is absolutely no reason to suggest the building with the skulls on was not indeed an earlier pub called the Crown Inn. The latter day pub simply taking it's name as we see many times today. The new Roscoe for example. I'm going to try put a date to the building next door to the Scotsman pub today. The date of that building is very relevant I think. At the moment were trying to solve this on what we think we know.
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Croggy
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Does anyone have medical knowledge to say if it would be possible for ammonia to cause a fatality like this?
It's been a good few years since I mucked out a stable, but I'm not convinced ... I assume there would be enough natural ventilation in that kind of building?
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Si
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If you were in a sealed room full of ammonia, I'm sure it wouldn't do you much good. We have dealt with ammonia at work, and just a small amount makes you step back sharpish. As I said before, it's in smelling salts. Ammonia in modern cleaning fluids is VERY diluted, if not now banned completely.
I don't know how easy it is to suffocate under straw, either. When I was a kid, my uncle had a farm and there was no problem with us playing in a barn full of hay, but the grain storage was another matter - very dangerous, and easy to sink into (like quick-sand.)
There's a thought. Animal feed? Sorry - more speculation!
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