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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
Can we not get the Y.A.S to have a look at these in situ and try date them for us? If we have a rough idea and know these are older than 230 years old we know we need to start looking beyond the press gang/soldier story for there origins.
I'll put this 1975 image of how the building layout was as well. It's been blown up big time so the quality is poor. Someone may spot some small clue in there perhaps.
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Still not heard from the YAS about dating the skulls,they said it would have to be brought up in one of their meetings.
Those skulls,in my opinion,are much older than the current skull building,or any of those in the area,by centuries i would say.
As you know i have a theory as to their origins,but proving that,either one way or the other, is another thing altogether.
However if they came from anything else but the parish church then i cant think of a building in Leeds,dating from the middle ages,that would be able to account for them being a part of.
Basically what im getting at is that in the middle ages the buildings of Leeds were timber framed,and the only substantial stone built building that would have had such carved decoration would have been the parish church..
OOOOOOH,hang on a minute,there was a chantry chaplel nearby (just gone to check).
Yes,Thomas Clarells Chapel,approximately on the site of the chinese buffet.
However,i would have thought such carved adornments,if thats what the skulls are,would have been on a more grander building.
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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One point - Assembly street seems to have been created when the cloth hall (the 1770 odd one) was altered and a street created. As you can see by old maps it stretched right to the calls and was only altered when the viaduct was constructed. Strange really as the existing building looks like it has an equal frontage on either side of the entrance, but was originallt much wider - strange.
Other point: I will get back in touch with EMCO see what they have to say.
I am also trying to get in touch with Kenneth Goor. Called him today but there was only an answerphone message.
Cnosni, not sure if you picked up before that the Buslingthorpe Lane building is still owned by Dysons, after leaving the plumbing trade they went into property dev.
Also Neil Dyson did say that he was aware of the story of the skulls. I will need to check with him and see where he heard it from. It is possible that he heard it pre 1968...
I'm still trying to get my head round some of these comments you guys have posted today/ last night!
I'll have another think - did by the way search the gale thing for the newspapers and found references to the Crown and Fleece.
It is interesing to note that a Hull newspaper had things feature in it about Leeds, writted in exactly the same was as in the Leeds Mercury /intellegencier...
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Take a look at the gable end on the shots on my page. There full size and easier to see. The building doesn't seem to line up. Behind the drain pipe it appears to be set back a few inches. Also look at the colour of the brickwork were the skulls were with the brickwork on the pitched end. To me it looks like one building and the brickwork is an exact match. Don't forget that small building would have had to have been the sole surviving building around much demolition. What do you think mate?
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=265602590&blogID=384412784 |
I agree, the skull wall and the gable-end wall appear to be contemporary, but definately do not line up with building 2 (or each other!)
Just a thought, but the windows on the top floor of the gable-end building suggest to me a workshop, not a hayloft/stables. They are quite big and stretch well up Crown Court (to let lots of light in.)
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You are right,the dodgy chimney building is a workshop,and its definitely not there in 1815.
Just cant help thinking the skull building was there though,dont forget this area built up all higgledy piggledy,buildings knocked down,rehashed,attached and unattached.
Just because it doesnt line up with building number 2 does not mean that it was not part of the same range at the same time (in 1815)
The ginnel and yard between building number 2 and the skull building could have been a ginnel,covered over by a higher floor,as in the ginnel we can see next to the number 2 building that Phil posted after he had lightened it up.
Could this explain why the 1815 map shows it as one long building down to the corner?
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
Can we not get the Y.A.S to have a look at these in situ and try date them for us? If we have a rough idea and know these are older than 230 years old we know we need to start looking beyond the press gang/soldier story for there origins.
I'll put this 1975 image of how the building layout was as well. It's been blown up big time so the quality is poor. Someone may spot some small clue in there perhaps.
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Still not heard from the YAS about dating the skulls,they said it would have to be brought up in one of their meetings.
Those skulls,in my opinion,are much older than the current skull building,or any of those in the area,by centuries i would say.
As you know i have a theory as to their origins,but proving that,either one way or the other, is another thing altogether.
However if they came from anything else but the parish church then i cant think of a building in Leeds,dating from the middle ages,that would be able to account for them being a part of.
Basically what im getting at is that in the middle ages the buildings of Leeds were timber framed,and the only substantial stone built building that would have had such carved decoration would have been the parish church..
OOOOOOH,hang on a minute,there was a chantry chaplel nearby (just gone to check).
Yes,Thomas Clarells Chapel,approximately on the site of the chinese buffet.
However,i would have thought such carved adornments,if thats what the skulls are,would have been on a more grander building.
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Maybe they were from a reclemation centre of old and someone just decided they liked them!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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It's funny how the bleedin' obvious sometimes bites you on the bum...of course the gable-end/chimney building is NOT a hayloft...who'd put a fire-place in a building full of straw!!!
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
One point - Assembly street seems to have been created when the cloth hall (the 1770 odd one) was altered and a street created. As you can see by old maps it stretched right to the calls and was only altered when the viaduct was constructed. Strange really as the existing building looks like it has an equal frontage on either side of the entrance, but was originallt much wider - strange.
Other point: I will get back in touch with EMCO see what they have to say.
I am also trying to get in touch with Kenneth Goor. Called him today but there was only an answerphone message.
Cnosni, not sure if you picked up before that the Buslingthorpe Lane building is still owned by Dysons, after leaving the plumbing trade they went into property dev.
Also Neil Dyson did say that he was aware of the story of the skulls. I will need to check with him and see where he heard it from. It is possible that he heard it pre 1968...
I'm still trying to get my head round some of these comments you guys have posted today/ last night!
I'll have another think - did by the way search the gale thing for the newspapers and found references to the Crown and Fleece.
It is interesing to note that a Hull newspaper had things feature in it about Leeds, writted in exactly the same was as in the Leeds Mercury /intellegencier... |
Missed the fact that Dysons still owned Buslingthorpe building,thats actually good news.
So if we can get them on side,get EMCO on side and hopefully the YAS (with a a date),hopefully get some result from the newspapers/library,put it all together and approach the civic trust then maybe,just maybe,we can pull this off.
It would be great to prove the story of the two men,but in the absence of proof we may have to settle for folklore.
If the folklore had said that the skulls were put there following an apparition of two skeletons or the devil or some other hobgoblin type happening then the realist inside me would completely dismiss it as hocum.
However this tale,seems to be pretty consistant,with a couple of small deviations,in the sources we have come across.
It is also consistant with what we know happened during the Napoleonic wars to recruit soldiers,we even have the record of the article in the Leeds Mercury detailing excatly how the Sergeants lured recruits with food on the end of their swords,getting them to take the shilling in exchange for the food,and therefore joining the army.
We know there were stables in the rear of the Crown/Crown and Fleece,and we know that the pub was there in 1817,just a few years after the Napoleonic wars,so its reasonable to assume (and probably possible to prove) that the pub was there during the wars.
Though gut feeling isnt enough,i feel that this tale is mostly true,its just those nagging little inconsistancies that keep niggling away
-That the skull building does not look like stables,but could they have been a hayloft?
-Is it the building they died in?
-why does it look like there is one long range of buildings in th 1815 map with no yard or ginnel?
These may turn out to be unanswerable,and we should prepare for this.
Cant wait for the meet up on the 11th!!
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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What? We didn't keep the horses warm in those days? ..
well done guys. As Captain Manwaring used to say 'It took you a long time to spot that one didn't it' 
Well that sheds some light on things a bit more. I've added a few more relevant pictures that are easy to scroll between and compare on the myspace site. Do we think a letter to the Y.E.P letter page asking if anyone has heard the tale to get in touch perhaps? As LS1 says his grandparents have never heard of the story either.
The new pics are here.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=265602590&blogID=384412784
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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Maybe they were from a reclemation centre of old and someone just decided they liked them!
Thats what i was thinking,but they were reclaimed from the demolition of the Parish Church in 1838,and placed there by someone either who remembered the event or was connected.
We know John Ainley was the proprieter of the pub in 1838.
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Just because the skull building didn't stand until after 1815 it doesn't mean the press gang story of the 2 men suffocating somewhere nearby hasn't got an element of truth in it. It also could suggest the men might not have been in the Crown and Fleece at all. Access to that yard was from at least 3 directions, Kirkgate, Assembly street and down the yard from the chippy. Those men could have run from anywhere. Even indeed the Crown Inn as the story suggests originally. It's all possible.
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Phill, on that last pic of building 2 (on your blog,) there is a moulding under the rendering, parallel to the gable-end roof-line. This suggests to me an original gable-end. This throws a spanniard in the works re the theory of one range of buildings in 1815. Ideas?
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Just because the skull building didn't stad until after 1815 it doesn't mean the story of the 2 men suffocating somewhere nearby hiding from the crimpers. It also could suggest the men might never have been in the Crown and Fleece. Access to that yard was from at least 3 directions, Kirkgate, Assembly street and down the yard from the chippy. Those men could have run from anywhere. Even indeed the Crown Inn as the story suggests originally. It's all possible. |
I thought the tale was that they had accepted the Kings Shilling,had second thoughts,the army would not let them back out,so had them locked away for the night where they suffocated.
Ive not come across the rurunning away bit,or have i missed something.
Just as an aside,ive tracked John Ainley in the 1851 census.
He is Inn Keeper at the Brunswick Tavern,Camp Road with his wife Sarah.
He is shown born Liversedge circa 1787.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Where's Camp Road, Chris?
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Phill, on that last pic of building 2, there is a moulding under the rendering parallel to the gable-end roof-line. This suggests to me an original gable-end. This throws a spanniard in the works re the theory of one range of buildings in 1815. Ideas? |
Yeah I've looked at that as well mate. I agree it is noticeable although I haven't seen anything like it before. It could be any type of lead flashing for waterproof purposes after alteration. We can't really see what is under the render. But we have got to say what the 1815 map tells us was there as well.
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Si
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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It's all grist to the mill, Phill.
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Where's Camp Road, Chris? |
Little London,streets nearby in the census are Brunswick Terrace,Jacobs Well/Jacobs Court,so between Little London and The Merrion Centre.
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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
| Phill, on that last pic of building 2, there is a moulding under the rendering parallel to the gable-end roof-line. This suggests to me an original gable-end. This throws a spanniard in the works re the theory of one range of buildings in 1815. Ideas? |
Yeah I've looked at that as well mate. I agree it is noticeable although I haven't seen anything like it before. It could be any type of lead flashing for waterproof purposes after alteration. We can't really see what is under the render. But we have got to say what the 1815 map tells us was there as well. |
any cahnce you can show me what you mean lads?
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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It's on that pic with the chimney you mentioned, Chris. Look to the left of the chimney - there's a moulding under the rendering.
Second post - page 28.
Just had another look - could just be the rendering itself. However, look at the roof. It's Yorkshire stone - not many of those in central Leeds these days, I should think. I guess it dates to before 1815, and therefore is part of the building range on the 1815 map.
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
It's on that pic with the chimney you mentioned, Chris. Look to the left of the chimney - there's a moulding under the rendering.
Second post - page 28. |
The dodgy chimney building or no 2 building.
also if you notice on the modern skull building it looks like the window is a later addition,it looks as though a doorway has been brcled up and the window put in half way up.
What do you think?
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Building 2, Chris. I've just edited my last post - see what you think.
Yeah, the door on the skull building has been altered. I mentioned on the day we were there, that the door has been partially bricked up to make a window.
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
Building 2, Chris. I've just edited my last post - see what you think.
Yeah, the door on the skull building has been altered. I mentioned on the day we were there, that the door has been partially bricked up to make a window. |
The door would appear to be quite wide would it not?
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Wide enough for a hand cart.
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Brandy
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1469 posts
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cnosni
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Leeds
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| Brandy wrote: |
heres my 2cents lol |
And the doorway is tall,you can see theres some infill above the window,Brandy i think you are on my wavelength here.
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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
Building 2, Chris. I've just edited my last post - see what you think.
Yeah, the door on the skull building has been altered. I mentioned on the day we were there, that the door has been partially bricked up to make a window. |
I see what you mean,hmmmmmmm
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Where's Camp Road, Chris? |
It was what now is Lovell park Road, just near where the Hobby Horse pub is.
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