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cnosni
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The coverage of the Mercury is from January 1807,hence the need to check manually the copies at Leeds library prior to 1807 back to about 1802.
More volunteers please!!
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drapesy
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cnosni
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| drapesy wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
Something that puzzles me is why in the directory of 1826 the pub is no 3 Crown Street,and by 1837 its no 7.
All i can think of is that the building on the end,the old chip shop,was added to the end of the row between 1826 and 1837,clearly as it does look completely different to the rest of the row then i would think this is a possiblity,what do you think.
Perhaps Phils 1815 map will give us a clue,come on tunnel dweller,get a move on!!!
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The Address of Rebop is:
Rebop
7b, Crown St, Leeds, West Yorkshire LS2 7DA
(taken from Yell.com)
The empty shop formerly Mo Too must be 7a. showing that originally, as we know from the old maps, they were one building - the Crown and Fleece, 7 crown street.
The food shop at the end of the block is
Fred Pizza & Bagels
1, Crown St, Leeds, West Yorkshire LS2 7DA
Tel: 0113 234 1999
so the building in between (empty I believe) must be 3-5 Crown street - and you can see on both the O.S maps that Cnosni posted that this building shows as 2 "units" to use a modern phrase.
So why did the crown use to be number3 ?
Well my theory is this -
In days gone by(18th/19th century say) renumbering of streets seems surprisingly common - as a trawl through old pics on Leodis will show - whereas now it happens very rarely - new buildings are just added with "a"s or "b"s after the adjacent number..Presumably the postal service , which started in the modern sense in 1840, made the numbers of properties far more important and discouraged renumbering due to the confusion it would cause.
Also it should be remembered that the convention of numbering one side of the street with odd numbers, the other with even has not always existed. The numbering of Kirkgate, for instance, does not follow this pattern - The numbers start at the Junction with Briggate and run in sequence(1,2,3,4) on the North Side to the east, then at the parish Church end the numbers switch to the South side and run back west to the Junction with Briggate again.
It may be that originally Crown street (formerly Assembly Street) was numbered in this way - so the building which is now'Freds' would still be number 1(if it was there) the building next door 2 and The crown 3.
Renumbering so that the south side of Crown street was even numbers (these buildings are on the 1847 map, but were demolished due to construction of The Corn Exchange) plus the addition of another building on the North Side (either through a new building (fred's) at the end - or by dividing the building in between into two) would lead to the North side of Crown street being numbered 1,3,5,7, with the crown at no 7 - consistent with the O.S. maps and the situation today.
Phew ! hope that makes sense!!!
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Nice one Drapesy,i get the drift and it makes sense,however,dont try and explain again when we meet in the Palace!!
By the way,what time are you thinking for the palace meet up,we will be out of the library at 5.
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cnosni
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| drapesy wrote: |
Hope this works in a legible form - from the Gale site (thanks for that Brandy!).
This is from the 'Leeds Mercury' of July 14 1832
Click on it and scroll down and there - highlighted in green is our Pub - the 'Crown and Fleece Inn, Crown Street' |
Drapesy,look at my list of searches that i did on the same database at the library,Mick has copied them onto this page.
I did the Crown and Fleece and got no result.
With this in mind would you lot go through my list of searches again and see what you come up with.
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drapesy
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Yes we need to sort out a time - perhaps we should start a new post/thread just about the meeting.
Cnosni - what I did for the search (which I'm still working on) -
After trying 'Crown and Fleece' (which brought up lots of entries for the two entirely separate words) I searched 'Crown & Fleece' - bingo!
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drapesy
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cnosni
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| drapesy wrote: |
| Yes we need to sort out a time - perhaps we should start a new post/thread just about the meeting. |
Well dont worry about the time,i know you rae at work til 430.
Phil and me can make our way to the Palace ,problem being all the pubs in between,we might not be able to make a valid contribution to the evening!!
LS1,its really important you turn up,your contacts with Dysons,EMCO have been a real plus to all of this.
How have you (LS1)gone on with the owners of the building in Buslingthorpe?
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cnosni
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| drapesy wrote: |
Yes we need to sort out a time - perhaps we should start a new post/thread just about the meeting.
Cnosni - what I did for the search (which I'm still working on) -
After trying 'Crown and Fleece' (which brought up lots of entries for the two entirely separate words) I searched 'Crown & Fleece' - bingo!
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Oh Bollox,how chuffing obvious.
You can see how more than one pair of eyes does the trick!!
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cnosni
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So Thomas walker was the publican circa 1846,seen 2 mentions of him so far.
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Phill_d
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Phill_d
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cnosni
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| This is the gable end of the reputed hay loft of the Crown & fleece were the soldiers suffocated according to the folk lore story. |
What is the gable end Phil?
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Geordie-exile
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Good work folks!
Just an idea.
The earliest source of the tale seems to be the YEP article in 1968. So where did they get the story?
Years ago I worked at the YEP and often had occasion to source files and photographs from the in house library. Then, you would look through drawers which were organised alphabetically. I don't recall any cross-referencing - if I'd been looking for this story I would have gone to s for skulls or c for crown etc.. I expect they've digitised the stuff now but surely they wouldn't have thrown away the old stuff? Articles were filed as a cutting from the newspaper attached by rubber band to the 'block' - a metal block of print that could be used again without need for re-typesetting.
I wonder whether our YEP journo thought to check these files when she researched her story?
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Phill_d
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I'll wipe those message. I was trying to run them all down in one go so it followed on. Nobody post anything for 10 minutes plese ;-)
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Phill_d
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drapesy
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| cnosni wrote: |
| So Thomas walker was the publican circa 1846,seen 2 mentions of him so far. |
So far I've got a John Ainley - who sold /let the pub in 1844.
Thomas Walker in 1840's and 1850's
Wm. Stead by 1863
Henry Morton by 1888
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Phill_d
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NO MORE MESSAGES PLEASE!! GRRRRRRRRR! stop. give me 10 minutes!! 
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Phill_d
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cnosni
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| The White cloth hall on Kirkgate. I think this could be relevant to the story perhaps. |
Phil,go to page 17 firts 3 messages,ive done a bit on the White Cloth Hall and its position to the skulls,as it was when it was built and how it is now with your pic as example.
The skulls were a little bit back from the hall,the building wasnt physically connected to the Hall.
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Phill_d
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LS1
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| cnosni wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| Oh and another thing, I wonder if Ken Gor thinks the Crown was the smaller building just cos it has a Crown sign on it (which we now know to be for wallpaper or paint!)? |
Yes _ I agree with you on that point.
However Kenneth Goor's book is not the earliest source we have for the story - its in the Y.E.P article of 1968 - I assume Goor got it from there.
Re your earlier query about the Forresters - though. I think you'd be totally wasting your time and that its a red Herring. |
Perhaps your right drapesy.
I know with all folklore it is word of mouth, but this tale is a strange one.
I asked my grandparents (who are 94 and 90) if they have heard of this and they said not.
More library digging needed I think on the 11th! |
Are you coming to the Library LS1?
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Aye, I'll be there. Even should be able to make it for a pint this time!
Also, Dysons still own the building on Buslingthorpe lane. although when I rang up Neil Dyson tried to sell me the building!!!!
I posted the story of how I got on earlier in the thread, but I cant tell you what page as I have this set up to view 100 posts per page!
Sorry Phill, not gonna post for a bit. didnt look all the way down before. Been out for tea for a bit!
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cnosni
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Ok. i give in then. it is relevant to the story. |
Give in to what mate?
Its connected in that its in the immediate vicinity,and perhaps lends its title to the name of the pub.
What were your thoughts?
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cnosni
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| LS1 wrote: |
| cnosni wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| Oh and another thing, I wonder if Ken Gor thinks the Crown was the smaller building just cos it has a Crown sign on it (which we now know to be for wallpaper or paint!)? |
Yes _ I agree with you on that point.
However Kenneth Goor's book is not the earliest source we have for the story - its in the Y.E.P article of 1968 - I assume Goor got it from there.
Re your earlier query about the Forresters - though. I think you'd be totally wasting your time and that its a red Herring. |
Perhaps your right drapesy.
I know with all folklore it is word of mouth, but this tale is a strange one.
I asked my grandparents (who are 94 and 90) if they have heard of this and they said not.
More library digging needed I think on the 11th! |
Are you coming to the Library LS1?
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Aye, I'll be there. Even should be able to make it for a pint this time!
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Top man!!
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Brandy
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Ok. i give in then. it was relevant to the story tho. Easy for people to understand. |
dont give in phill im still with you mate
ps/im sorry if i posted this in your ten minute amnesty lol
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cnosni
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| Brandy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| Ok. i give in then. it was relevant to the story tho. Easy for people to understand. |
dont give in phill im still with you mate
ps/im sorry if i posted this in your ten minute amnesty lol
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Yes come on Phil,if this ten minute thing is what you need then start again,but dont post yourself either or well think that you have had enough time to compose yourself.
So if its ten minutes you need,say it again mate and well all shut up!!
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