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Hats Off
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That photo of Gallowtree gate is of Leicester city centre, if you look at the right bottom corner it clearly states Leicester. I must say that I have never seen any Leeds maps or references to Kirkgate being called by any other name.
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Phill_d
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It does say the Cloth hall has been tampered and altered with over it's long history to the extent it's made it very unstable.
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cnosni
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| Hats Off wrote: |
| That photo of Gallowgate is of Leicester city centre, if you look at the right bottom corner it clearly states Leicester. I must say that I have never seen any Leeds maps or references to Kirgate being called by any other name. |
Sometimes you just cant see the wood for the trees.
I am on leodis going through all the old pics of Kirkgate to try and see any matches with the buildings in the oic.
Obviously i can stop this now,Phil i think we need glasses.
Ok so we can still look for any mention of anything similar to Gallow whatever.
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cnosni
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| It does say the Cloth hall has been tampered and altered with over it's long history to the extent it's made it very unstable. |
See above mate,from Hats off
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Brandy
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i think you two need to lay off that shandy lads!
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cnosni
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| Brandy wrote: |
| i think you two need to lay off that shandy lads! |
Clear head today pal,shame about the eyes though!!
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Brandy
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Phill_d
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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Tasa
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Si
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Otley
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"Draft dodgers?????" Where did that come from?
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chameleon
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| cnosni wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
cnosni, that'll be the Abattoir. I have heard tale of animals being driven from Marsh Lane along New York Street to meet their misrable end! It was a big place that was built from what I can remember to replace the Leadenhall carcas market that was on Vicar Lane before the present market after some public health act or other.
Now the Abattoir is on Pontefract Road. |
Nice place for an abbatoir,i remember the animals at Crossgreen getting loose on occasion,we sat it the science block watching the cows running around,hitting parked cars etc. |
Abbatoir it was - you can't make them out from this, but along the front opening onto the road were double louvred doors, up two steps from the footpath, used for loading the wagons. Not always a pleasant view through them, nor as said - smell.
But there is the real market in tha back-ground too.
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chameleon
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| Phill_d wrote: |
Thanks Si.
I'll put this picture up how I first found out Kirkgate used to be called Gallow tree gate. There's very little to be found about this grisly past. I wonder if it is featured on any old maps at all?
I think I've only read about it twice and you can just make out the location marked in the botom left hand corner.
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That might be of Leicester Phill, but I remember seeing a similar reference for Leeds, found something in Burt and Grady's Illustrared History of Leeds.
It talks of the reserved land of the Lord of the Manor and of the Home farm in Medieval times, the 'new demense',comprising of four elements: Hall Flat to the north,Gardens of Biggate burages to the east, the Manoral park to the west,Margaret Holmes to the south of the park, The Holmes and Gallowhill Flatt.
Unfortunately it doesn't give anything away about its origins but it was certainly long before the town as we know it.
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cnosni
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| Si wrote: |
| "Draft dodgers?????" Where did that come from? |
Well they were supposed to have been locked in because they had had second thoughts about the kings shilling.
Anyway me and Phil went to the library and began trwling through some of the stuff there.
Theres loads,and when i left Phil was still noseying through a large volume.
So far we have found one picture and accompanying text from a 1968 YEP news paper style publication that they had produced,i think in connection with the opening of the M1(dont quote me on that)
The text tells roughly the same tale as what we know,and still the only source of its origin is "folklore"
Phil did come across some references to press gangs in Leeds in 1780,and how all the inhabitants would make sure they werent out after dark so as not to be pressed.
However i checked the burials at Leeds Parish church for 1779/1780/1781 and could find nothing to point to deaths of anyone in those circumstances.
The other mooted period of time is the peninsular and Napoleonic wars.The Leeds PR for this period is not in the format that i had hoped for,that is compiled by the Thoresby society with lots of interesting contemporary details added at the foot of the page for a particular year etc.
They are indexed but will take a great deal of going through,so i think we will look at them as a last resort.
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drapesy
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24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
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If you get tonight's YEP theres is a photo of certain Secret Leeders thats not included on the website link!
I note that the article begins
"FOR more than 200 years, this ghostly pair of carved skulls took pride of place outside a Leeds city centre pub"
Well, no , not really - they were tucked away down a back alley and hardly anyone knew they were there - but journo's tend to live by the old adage of not letting facts get in the way of a good story!
Still - great to see it in print and it should bring some good publicity.
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Phill_d
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Hi Chameleon, thanks for adding a little confirmation I wasn't actually imagining this Gallow gate affair. We did have a look at some stuff in the library while we were there but couldn't find anything substantial. I'll post the stuff about what we found out in a bit. It would help if we knew the pub and stables were actually built in 1780 and indeed exactly when it was built as that narrows the search down a bit. I think overall the Y.E.P story is pretty good, With hindsight there is always things we'd like to alter, but by and large it gets the story across well.
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chameleon
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It's when you start pouring over the stuff 'manually' in books, that you really appreciate the old'puter and the net isn't it?
And you start to realise that google isn't god after all!
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Phill_d
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| chameleon wrote: |
It's when you start pouring over the stuff 'manually' in books, that you really appreciate the old'puter and the net isn't it?
And you start to realise that google isn't god after all! |
Google is excellent, all depending of course someone else has put it on the net. No your right mate. Researching the old way is hard work, but if you look hard enough 'it is there' 
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Phill_d
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These old newspaper extracts were about the best we found regarding any press gang activity in Leeds. The Press gang activity in 1780 seems to have been pretty bad news for the men of Leeds at that time.
In 1780 a press gang visited the town and caused a general alarm. It's unfamiliar operations greatly harassed the entire local trade. Honest tradesmen were afraid to visit there neighbours after dark either for the purpose of business or pleasure. The market people hurrying from the danger that surrounded them returned home earlier than usual, filled with fear and and dismay. It had come to light that personal safety had departed from there accustomed haunts. In there knowledge no such thing has ever happened before. The visit of that press gang to our town was felt to be a practical suspension of all the laws of liberty.
It seems there was a motion to bring in the 'Volunteer organisation' in 1782. While The neighbouring towns accepted this movement Leeds held out as long as it could.
The White Cloth Hall court yard was also said to have been used for Military parades. America is mentioned throughout so it must be the American revolutionary war at that time??
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Geordie-exile
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06-Feb-2008 22:39:43
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Further information about press gang activity in Leeds:
'A press-gang in December, 1779, commenced operations in Leeds, and seized a cropper by the name of John Baldwin. This unfortunate man was so affected with this occurrence that he afterwards hanged himself. A press-gang had appeared in York a short time previously, but had been compelled to leave the city by the irritation and anxiety of the citizens'
http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/impress/aurora.htm
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fevlad
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leeds
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07-Feb-2008 10:17:24
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excellent piece in the YEP and good to see Phil getting some recognition.
There is a gallows lane in Otley, and a gibbet street in halifax
never come across any such reference when studying or looking around Leeds
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fevlad
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leeds
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455 posts
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| Geordie-exile wrote: |
Further information about press gang activity in Leeds:
'A press-gang in December, 1779, commenced operations in Leeds, and seized a cropper by the name of John Baldwin. This unfortunate man was so affected with this occurrence that he afterwards hanged himself. A press-gang had appeared in York a short time previously, but had been compelled to leave the city by the irritation and anxiety of the citizens'
http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/impress/aurora.htm |
there was more to press gangs than their image suggests.
naval press gangs especially during th time of the napoleonic wars would be mainly interested in skilled sailors, in fact many men were pressed from ships encountered at sea. The Royal navy of the time was extremely cosmopolitan-the victory for instance at Trafalgar had a large racial and nationality mix. It was often not too difficult to press men into joining the Royal navy-it meant you could get away from trouble, andthat you had a roof over your head and better food(a very much relative trerm) than on land, particularly with the large number of poor people who converged from the countryside into the cities and ports in the wake of the enclosure acts.
Just as an aside: vastly more people in the Royal navy died from disease than from battle in Nelson's day , but it was still a better option for many than the uncertainties and troubles of shore life.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3397 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
If you get tonight's YEP theres is a photo of certain Secret Leeders thats not included on the website link!
I note that the article begins
"FOR more than 200 years, this ghostly pair of carved skulls took pride of place outside a Leeds city centre pub"
Well, no , not really - they were tucked away down a back alley and hardly anyone knew they were there - but journo's tend to live by the old adage of not letting facts get in the way of a good story!
Still - great to see it in print and it should bring some good publicity. |
I agree, Drapesy. Apart from a couple of small errors it was an accurate story. Let's hope it generates more interest.
Wasn't the American War of Independence in the 1770s? I can't think which war took place in the 1780s, but probably involved the French!
Fevlad mentioned the gibbet in Otley. There were actually two (blood-thirsty lot, Otliensians!) One was on Pool Road aptly named Gallows Hill (and aptly next to the modern day cemetery - also near The Summercross,) and the other was to the west, where Weston Lane turns sharply to the right at the entrance lodge to Weston Hall. A small knoll can be seen through the gates, and this is where the gibbet stood.
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Si
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PS Thanks to Phill and Cnosni for doing the 'old-fashioned' research! Cnosni - I think the pint tally must be up to about a gallon by now!!!
I thought I'd mention on here that the reason for not replacing the skulls in their exact original position (apart from poor public access) is that the wall is seriously in danger of falling down, and probably won't last another two years! It bows out about a foot, and has huge cracks where the hayloft door has been converted into a window. Don't park your car under it!!!
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Si
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Has anyone e-mailed this Paul Dyson to tell him of his family's part in The Great Leeds Skulls Mystery?
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