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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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drapesy
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Location:
Burley, Leeds
Joined on:
24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2145 posts
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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No problem....well, actually loads of problems! I guess it's not so bad once you get used to it!
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Brandy
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Location:
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1469 posts
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nice one si thanks for that mate.
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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Ok everyone,still havent heard from the YAS,but as they are not a full time organisation as such then i wasnt expecting a full reply,so i thought i would copy what i sent:-
"On Secret Leeds we discuss a number of subjects,basically centred around Leeds and its past,nothing too serious,none of us are what you would call "Historians",merely people with an interest in the old and mysterious parts of Leeds,its buildings,its history and its legends.
I have contacted yourselves as i was hoping you may be able to either answer,or at least point us in the right of being able to find the answer to, a question that we have been discussing for a short while now.
One of the many topics we are discussing at the moment is regarding some carved stone Skulls that were situated on the rear of a building in Crown Court,between Kirkgate and the Corn Exchange.
You may already be aware of these skulls and their history so therefore you must forgive me if i continue to give you the details of what little i and others on Secret Leeds already know,or at least think we know,about them.
The legend about the Skulls is told In the Yorkshire Evening Post publication 'Memory Lane Volume Two'
I saw a photo of two skulls and read the
accompanying paragraph which stated....
‘In Crown Court, an alleyway between Kirkgate and the Corn Exchange in Leeds there are two stone skulls set
high on a wall of a former stable. These are to commemorate two men who were press ganged (crimped) into
the army at the time of the Peninsula war (1803-14). They were locked overnight in a stable where they sank,
all too comfortably, into a bed of straw and suffocated’. Further research revealed….
They were asphyxiated by the ammonia gas given off by the rotting hay and the military authorities had the
skulls carved and placed on the building “pour encourager les autres”
Though we have heard this tale before there is some debate over the age of the skulls in question,i have attached three photos 2 of the skulls,one in its previous location in Crown Court,and one in its current location in Buslingthorpe,and one of the building in Crown Court Yard as it is today,with what would appear to be the entrance of the hayloft still visible.
I was wondering if you could take a look at them,and if you would be so kind, give an informed opinion as to whether they are of early 19th century origin,or older.
Its mine,and a few others belief that the condition of the skulls would indicate that they are much older than the early 19th century.
Though they appear to have been in Crown Court until 1974,when the owners of the building Ion Dyson relocated to Buslingthorpe,this amount of time,in a relatively sheltered alleyway would not seem to account for the amount of wear and tear that they have suffered.
If you believe that they are possibly of an earlier origin then i was wondering if you could give me some idea of possibly when they could have been carved,and also if they would have been carved for a particular purpose,for example what we have been speculating which is a church adornment or some sort of tombstone carving.
It is the suspision of a few of us that these carvings are medieaval,and i have speculated that they may have come from the old Parish Church on Kirkgate when it was dismantled in 1838.
Clearly this is conjecture and i am reluctant to speculate as to how the skulls would have been placed there more than 20 years after the recruits death,though clearly the event would have been a living memory to those in the area in 1838 and perhaps it was someones way of commemorating the event,but as i said this is pure cojecture and has absolutely no base in fact.
I would like to thank you for taking the time of reading this message and hopefully the provision of "help" with trying to get to the root of the question of the skulls, which we are,by the way,hoping to try and have them replaced in a far more suitable location than where they are now,on a wall at the back of an industrial unit,out of site of the public."
Hopefully this meets everyones sentiments
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Hoppers-World!
User
Location:
Horsforth
Joined on:
16-Apr-2008 20:01:30
Posted:
5 posts
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Great investigative work there Philll, loved the back passage pun.
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Phill_d
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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| Hoppers-World! wrote: |
| Great investigative work there Philll, loved the back passage pun. |
Thanks Hoppers! A good team effort by the S.L gang here 
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drapesy
User
Location:
Burley, Leeds
Joined on:
24-Feb-2007 21:20:32
Posted:
2145 posts
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The old maps Si posted are fascinating. I see both refer to the area around the Corn Exchange as 'Kirkgate Lees'- which is an area I've never heard referred to as such before. Anyone else ever heard of it before?
It would also appear that the Crown and Fleece building (I reckon at 9 Crown Street by a process of deduction from the maps and a photo of adjacent propeties on Leodis) is still extant - having beem commercial properties. So a 'lost pub' - I'll get a photo ASAP.
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Good idea, Drapesy. I couldn't remember if the Crown and Fleece had been covered in Lost Pubs, and I didn't have time to trawl through 37 pages!!!
Never heard of Kirkgate Lees either. BTW, these maps are a great investment!
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| drapesy wrote: |
The old maps Si posted are fascinating. I see both refer to the area around the Corn Exchange as 'Kirkgate Lees'- which is an area I've never heard referred to as such before. Anyone else ever heard of it before?
It would also appear that the Crown and Fleece building (I reckon at 9 Crown Street by a process of deduction from the maps and a photo of adjacent propeties on Leodis) is still extant - having beem commercial properties. So a 'lost pub' - I'll get a photo ASAP. |
What is a Lee? I can only find a nautical reference in the dictionary.
I always thought it meant grassland or meadow in old English, so does maybe it refer to when the area was open fields? Anyway, I'm straying from the point of the thread now!
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
The old maps Si posted are fascinating. I see both refer to the area around the Corn Exchange as 'Kirkgate Lees'- which is an area I've never heard referred to as such before. Anyone else ever heard of it before?
It would also appear that the Crown and Fleece building (I reckon at 9 Crown Street by a process of deduction from the maps and a photo of adjacent propeties on Leodis) is still extant - having beem commercial properties. So a 'lost pub' - I'll get a photo ASAP. |
What is a Lee? I can only find a nautical reference in the dictionary.
I always thought it meant grassland or meadow in old English, so does maybe it refer to when the area was open fields? Anyway, I'm straying from the point of the thread now! |
Could be a derivative of Lea,as in meadow,grassland.
Could have been a vey old description of the area behind kirkgate that had been maintained down the centuries.
according to modern map of Leeds around 1500,the area that the Corn Exchange would appear to be still clear of buildings.
The 1770 Jeffreys plan of Leeds shows that the area had been built on,but the future site of the third White Cloth Hall is still "open",described as Tenters Garth.
Tenters were the wooden frames used in the process of woollen cloth making.
The cloth was stretched out over the frame,held tightly in place by hooks,hence the term "Being on Tenter/Tender hooks"
So perhaps in the very early days of Leeds cum Holbeck,this area was open meadow land ,a Lea,and the name stuck for a good long while.
Conjecture,but its as good a reason as i can think.
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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Think you might be right there!! Often place names are so called for very simple reasons - Briggate - road to the bridge Vicar Lane, cos thats where the vicarage was!!! (where the market is now!)
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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I think you're spot-on, Cnosni.
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| I think you're spot-on, Cnosni. |
Funny thing is is that ive never come across the term in Leeds before,in either census or parish registers,no mention in the Illus hist.
Any way Drapesy,can you just clear up for me where you think the skulls were.
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jf
User
Location:
Armley Free State
Joined on:
17-Mar-2007 20:26:14
Posted:
199 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
This is the next building down and no trace of the skulls.
Away from the hustle and bustle we step back in time to how it was 150years ago. |
Just something I've spotted in this photo (apologies if it's already been mentioned), but it looks like the painted advertisement/name on the gable end in the background states DY..., presumably 'Ion Dyson'. Does this narrow down the location of the building which was home to the skulls, or are we already fairly certain of the location?
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jf
User
Location:
Armley Free State
Joined on:
17-Mar-2007 20:26:14
Posted:
199 posts
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Sorry, my post didn't include the photo in the quote! It's the fifth picture on Page 1 of this thread (or 6th if you include the LHES logo).
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Phill_d
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Where were you stood (in relation to the Google Earth image) when you took that pic, Phill?
Well spotted, JF! Which gable end is the "Old Dyson Sign Of Leodis?" Is it the end one, or the one on what was the pub?
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Phill_d
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Which one mate? The sign or the last pic?
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Both! But I meant the pic looking down the yard. See edited post above!
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but if Dyson moved to Scott Hall Road and they took the skulls with them, then surely the building that they were on originally has to be the Dysons one?
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Forgetful Cat wrote: |
In the surrealist pamphlet, Gareth Brown says that the original location was occupied by a company called Ion Dyson, which relocated to a purpose built office block on Buslingthorpe lane in the 1970's, taking the skulls with them.
This
http://www.leedsonline.co.uk/info/938/
suggests the building still bears the company name, though they are no longer there.
Gareth states that he tried to contact Ion Dyson without success. A quick google and companies house check shows that they are now registered at a pub in York, and still trading.
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This is the quote I was referring to......
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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That's logical, Captain! Sorry....LS1.
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