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roundhegian
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Huddersfield
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13-Aug-2007 13:46:35
Posted:
157 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Well fingers crossed. Lets hope we can maybe start to have a little input into these things. As far as i'm concerned it's long overdue. B.T.W is everyone else having trouble with Secret Leeds this morning?? I think the server needs winding up!! |
I gave up temporarily about an hour-and-a-half ago because every click on the mouse resulted in waiting for minutes on end .
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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All seems ok now. It started to go wobbly about 9 this morning. Anyway It's camera time. I'm off out. Everyone have a good weekend! 
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Brandy
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1469 posts
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chameleon
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Leeds
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Posted:
3609 posts
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| Brandy wrote: |
I thought that it was fitting to have a name for our new found friends so here's my suggestions
ladies and gentlemen i proudly present
MUNKI & DUNKI
PS/no offence lads |
Well done Brandy - and very apt, whilst not wanting to reincarnate Dot - I suppose they are always skullking around in the background
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Brandy
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Posted:
1469 posts
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| chameleon wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
I thought that it was fitting to have a name for our new found friends so here's my suggestions
ladies and gentlemen i proudly present
MUNKI & DUNKI
PS/no offence lads |
Well done Brandy - and very apt, whilst not wanting to reincarnate Dot - I suppose they are always skullking around in the background |
lol sure would be nice if we can get em moved back though eh?
what's got me baffled is the significance in how and why they ended up there in the first place??
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chameleon
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Leeds
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29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
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Just another thought in terms of propriety - if those who moved the skulls to their 'new' building did not actually own that which was the their original home (leasees perhaps?) then most likely those people did not have the right to remove them at all?
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raveydavey
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Leeds
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22-Mar-2007 20:29:07
Posted:
1122 posts
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Just a thought, but if there are problems getting the skulls put on the Crown building (depending who owns it...), the council own the Corn Exchange a matter of feet away and it would be a cracking bit of old Leeds history to have on show again.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Posted:
2638 posts
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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Posted:
2638 posts
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cnosni
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Leeds
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Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. |
I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; |
Ok Drapsey. Thanks for that. Well i'm always under the impression the pub was the old chippy. It would be worth having a look in that old yard. I wonder if the food girl will open again up for another nosey round the back passage lol 
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ROTFL "nosey round the back passage" OOOOOOOOERRR MISSUS
have we any idea who actually carved these sculls phill?
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Do we know when the deaths occured? If it's when there were press-gangs I guess we're looking at 1700s/early 1800s. If so, the carved skulls look a lot older than that to me IMHO. A wild shot in the dark, but what if they originally came from Kirkstall Abbey, or a cemetery? Just thought I'd toss that into the maelstrom of speculation.
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Si, i had come to the same thought myself.
Clearly the weathering on these skulls is centuries old,older than that of these 19th century buildings.
So i was thinking about where they COULD have come from.
Death is obviuosly the prevailing subject of these skulls,and a trip around very old churchs have examples of rich peoples tombs decorated with images of shulls,cadavers etc.
It was a way of reminding the living that they too would one day "return to dust",and this trend seems to have started in England from around the 14th century,following the black death.
It continued for some time,and if you go in the parish church you will see examples of such ghastly carvings on the salvaged tombs of Elizebethan notables that were saved from the Medieval church when it was demolished for the new church in the 1830s.
This is where i suspect thhe skulls could be from.They were situated in a victorian brick built building,and could well have been saved from the demolition of the old church.
The wear and tear on the heads is from rain and wind,so if they were associated with the church then they were on the outside.
Whether they were from a tomb or the church itself is open to debate,but i would say that they look like that they would be more likely to be from the church itself,as the heads are clearly carved from a block of stone,which is more indicative of use in a building rather than a tomb.
Further to this elaborate tombs/memorials for the wealthy were usually inside the church,where it was far more desirable to be interred for the well at heel.
Tombs/gravestones as we know them now seem to have been a late 17th/early 18th century phenomenom.
So,all in all,taking into account the weathering on the skulls and how long they must have been exposed to the elements to get in such a state,and the probable time that they were place in the wall in the yard then its quite possible that the heads were some sort of adornment of the Medieval parish church.
If so then they are even more important than at first thought.
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
| Brandy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| drapesy wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. |
I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; |
Ok Drapsey. Thanks for that. Well i'm always under the impression the pub was the old chippy. It would be worth having a look in that old yard. I wonder if the food girl will open again up for another nosey round the back passage lol
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ROTFL "nosey round the back passage" OOOOOOOOERRR MISSUS
have we any idea who actually carved these sculls phill?
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Do we know when the deaths occured? If it's when there were press-gangs I guess we're looking at 1700s/early 1800s. If so, the carved skulls look a lot older than that to me IMHO. A wild shot in the dark, but what if they originally came from Kirkstall Abbey, or a cemetery? Just thought I'd toss that into the maelstrom of speculation.
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Si, i had come to the same thought myself.
Clearly the weathering on these skulls is centuries old,older than that of these 19th century buildings.
So i was thinking about where they COULD have come from.
Death is obviuosly the prevailing subject of these skulls,and a trip around very old churchs have examples of rich peoples tombs decorated with images of shulls,cadavers etc.
It was a way of reminding the living that they too would one day "return to dust",and this trend seems to have started in England from around the 14th century,following the black death.
It continued for some time,and if you go in the parish church you will see examples of such ghastly carvings on the salvaged tombs of Elizebethan notables that were saved from the Medieval church when it was demolished for the new church in the 1830s.
This is where i suspect thhe skulls could be from.They were situated in a victorian brick built building,and could well have been saved from the demolition of the old church.
The wear and tear on the heads is from rain and wind,so if they were associated with the church then they were on the outside.
Whether they were from a tomb or the church itself is open to debate,but i would say that they look like that they would be more likely to be from the church itself,as the heads are clearly carved from a block of stone,which is more indicative of use in a building rather than a tomb.
Further to this elaborate tombs/memorials for the wealthy were usually inside the church,where it was far more desirable to be interred for the well at heel.
Tombs/gravestones as we know them now seem to have been a late 17th/early 18th century phenomenom.
So,all in all,taking into account the weathering on the skulls and how long they must have been exposed to the elements to get in such a state,and the probable time that they were place in the wall in the yard then its quite possible that the heads were some sort of adornment of the Medieval parish church.
If so then they are even more important than at first thought.
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Thats a good point cnosni, also, if they were in a yard, there would have been a lot more protection from weathering also, so you are probably right about.
If you go up Scott hall Road you can actually see the stone in the back of the building alongside national tyers, wasnt aware that you could get access to the building where they are as it looks very secure.
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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That's an interesting thought, Cnosni. The skulls have a kind of medeival look to them IMO. Is there anyone on SL who would know if this were true? However, I guess there's no way we'll ever know for sure. Mists of time, and all that!
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Si
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Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Also, do we know for sure that the skulls were put there as a memorial to the two unfortunates, or is the story a myth which grew up because of the skulls? Chicken and egg. They may have been dug up by the original workmen and incorporated into the wall. Who knows?
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Well the book 'haunted Leeds' seems to be a pretty accurate account of this type of thing in Leeds. It states that local folk law says the skulls were for the 2 soldiers. I guess as you say it's shrouded in the mists of time. Whatever the story I think we all agree were the skulls are now isn't the right place and they should be returned. I can't think of anything in the centre of Leeds like this at all.
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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Me neither, Phill. I agree they should be returned. I'm just trying to see it from all angles, if you see what I mean. I'd love to see them in an appropriate place with a plaque. I feel quite attached to them, whatever their provenance!
I'm assuming they'll soon appear in the YEP?
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Brandy
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21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1469 posts
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its weired mate, i feel a strange urge to do right by them?
i cannot seem to get them out of my head(no pun intended) i keep trying to figure out just where they actually came from and why they have ended up where they are now?? totally baffled i am???
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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Yes I agree with you guys. I kinda feel a bit sorry for them. Poor things hid away like that. Well e-mails have been sent Si. Were never ones to give up easy are we?
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Si
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Location:
Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Also, do we know for sure that the skulls were put there as a memorial to the two unfortunates, or is the story a myth which grew up because of the skulls? Chicken and egg. They may have been dug up by the original workmen and incorporated into the wall. Who knows? |
well my thoughts were that that the building,which from the front certainly looks early victorian (judging by the windows)could well have been built around the time of the medieaval churches demolition.
I also understand that some redecoration took place on the interior of the 1712-1715,but as everyone seems to agree they have certainly been exposed to the elements for centuries
My thoughts were that it was a piece of decorative stonework that was removed during the churches dismantling in 1838.
Im sure most of the ordinary stonework in decent condition would have been re used in one way or another so its not unreasonable to assume that decorative stonework may have been reused or retained for "novelty"value.
As to why its there then ,then one would have to say that the only credible explanation is that it was put there after the death of the two soldiers as a way of marking the event,in othere words someones thought
"Weve got these two skulls,lets bob em up there so everyone remembers the two soldiers" .
There seems little other reason to place them there,which even in the victorian times ,was a little out of the way.
What seems important here is to try and see when these two soldiers had died,any clues in the haunted Leeds book?
There were troops deployed on the streets of Leeds on a number of occasions,in 1842 and 1867.
Though the 1842 deployment would not have been condusive to public sympathy as they were used to try and quell riots in Holbeck.
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Si
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Otley
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Unfortunately, the Haunted Leeds book does not give a date - it just says "during the days of the press gangs." However, it does mention that "the property went across Kirkgate." It then mentions how the recruits died and "the event was commemorated by placing two carved stone skulls on the wall of the inn." It then tells the story of "the King's shilling."
That's about it, Cnosni.
The skulls don't look like they were carved specifically for this event to me, either, but it's all speculation.
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cnosni
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Location:
Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
Unfortunately, the Haunted Leeds book does not give a date - it just says "during the days of the press gangs." However, it does mention that "the property went across Kirkgate." It then mentions how the recruits died and "the event was commemorated by placing two carved stone skulls on the wall of the inn." It then tells the story of "the King's shilling."
That's about it, Cnosni.
The skulls don't look like they were carved specifically for this event to me, either, but it's all speculation. |
Wikipedia has this about Impressment,or Press Gangs
"Impressment (colloquially, "the Press" or "press-ganging") is the act of conscripting people to serve in the military or navy, usually by force and without notice. It was used by the Royal Navy, beginning in 1664, during the 18th century and early 19th century, in time of war as a means of crewing warships, although legal sanction for the practice goes back to the time of King Edward I. The Royal Navy impressed many British merchant sailors, as well as some sailors from other nations. People liable to impressment were eligible men of seafaring habits between the ages of 18 and 55 years, though very rarely non-seamen were impressed as well. If they believed that they were impressed unfairly, pressed men were able to submit appeals to the Admiralty, and those appeals were often successful. The navy had little interest in impressing people who were not ordinary or able seamen, since they would be of no use on board a ship."
"Impressment was strongly criticised by those who believed it to be contrary to the British constitution — unlike many of its continental rivals, Britain did not conscript its subjects for any other military service aside from a brief experiment with army impressment in 1778–80, and the public opposed conscription in general — but as impressment was deemed vital to the strength of the navy and, by extension, to the survival of the realm, it was repeatedly upheld by the courts. The impressment of seamen from American ships caused serious tensions between Britain and the United States in the years leading up to the War of 1812. After the defeat of Napoleon in 1814, Britain ended the practice and never resumed it."
More detailed account of impressment for the army
"Starting in 1645, the New Model Army raised by Oliver Cromwell to overthrow Charles I during the English Civil War was largely manned by impressment.[1] After the restoration of the monarchy, impressment into the army was discontinued.
During the American Revolutionary War, after the losses at the Battle of Saratoga and the apprehended hostilities with France, the existing voluntary enlistment measures were judged to be insufficient. Between 1775 and 1781 the regular army increased from 48,000 to 110,000. Two acts were passed, the Recruiting Act 1778 and the Recruiting Act 1779 for the impression of individuals into the British Army.[5] The chief advantages of these acts was in the number of volunteers brought in under the apprehension of impressment. To avoid impressment, some recruits incapacitated themselves by cutting off the thumb and forefinger of the right hand.[6] The Recruiting Act of 1779 was repealed on May 26, 1780, and army impressment was permanently discontinued.
During the experiment, the British government allowed army impressment under severely restricted circumstances — both acts emphasised volunteering over impressment, and offered strong incentives to volunteers. The impressment portion of the 1778 act applied only to Scotland and the area around London, excluding Wales and the rest of England to avoid interfering with harvesting; the 1779 act applied to all of Great Britain, but was initially suspended everywhere except the area around London, and actually applied to all of Great Britain for only six months until the 1779 act as repealed in May 1780 and army impressment ceased in Britain.[2]
Unlike naval impressment, army impressment applied only to "able-bodied idle, and disorderly Persons, who could not, upon Examination, prove themselves to exercise and industriously follow some lawful Trade or Employment, or to have some Substance sufficient for their Support and Maintenance" as well as smugglers according to the 1778 law, but excluding from that any men who were voters or harvest workers. The 1779 law extended impressment also to "incorrigible rogues" who had abandoned their families and left them as expenses on the parish.[3] Impressed apprentices were released under appeal from their masters, and impressed foreigners were released when requested by their countries' embassies"
So impressment for the army was only 1778-1780,the naval pressment ended by 1814,and any way it would appear that Naval impressment would not have been an isuue in Leeds.
Also considering that Naval impressment was over quite some time then for the book to say "during the days of the press gangs." would be too broad a period of history to be of any benefit to the reader or researcher to be able to judge when it occured.
So if the book is correct then this would indicate the soldiers did die before the demolition of the church in 1838,and ,judging by the front of the property that the skulls were on,before its construction.
However,thats not to say that the rear of the building,and the hayloft,of which we can see still appears to be there through the evidence of the stairs and the door,could not have been from an earlier structure,which was embellished in Victorian times at the front.
Certainly by the time of 1838 the soldiers would have been dead for 40 years,and their death would certainly not only be known as a local event from the recent past but also a living memory from those alive at the time of the incident.
I might take a look in the Leeds PR for the time 1778-1780,see if there is mention of the deaths.Incidents such as this do appear in the notes of the parish registers,or have been added in to the printed transcript by the Thoresby society,ive seen lots of addendums on these transcript sgiving little stories of local happenings at the time that the register is from.
Just a matter of finding the time to get down there.
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Forgetful Cat
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10 posts
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From
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan.mcfarlane2/songs.htm
Bed of Straw (D.McFarlane)
In the Yorkshire Evening Post publication 'Memory Lane Volume Two' I saw a photo of two skulls and read the
accompanying paragraph which stated....
‘In Crown Court, an alleyway between Kirkgate and the Corn Exchange in Leeds there are two stone skulls set
high on a wall of a former stable. These are to commemorate two men who were press ganged (crimped) into
the army at the time of the Peninsula war (1803-14). They were locked overnight in a stable where they sank,
all too comfortably, into a bed of straw and suffocated’. Further research revealed….
They were asphyxiated by the ammonia gas given off by the rotting hay and the military authorities had the
skulls carved and placed on the building “pour encourager les autres”
The stone skulls, once on the walls on Ion Dyson Ltd, were removed in 1974 when the firm moved to
Buslingthorpe and they incorporated them in the wall there – two miles out – and to rather an inappropriate
setting and location in my opinion!
You revellers, drink your beer rally round, come listen to me
Come over and lend an ear it’s all of a bed of straw
Two travellers came to town rally round, come listen to me
In a tavern did sit down by the fire to keep warm
Ch. God bless this army, God bless this war
God bless the sergeant for he gave ‘em a bed of straw
To Leeds they came that day rally round, come listen to me
Lookin’ for work, somewhere to stay, hungry and weary and cold
Suddenly up a shout rally round, come listen to me
Hurry on boys ‘Crimpers’ about , some of ‘em comin’ this way
Jump up boys, it’s time to go rally round, come listen to me
The sergeant says ‘You’ve been too slow, we’re lookin’ for fellas like you.
We need you in foreign lands rally round, come listen to me
He’s pressed a shillin’ into their ‘ands, nothin’ these fellas could do
From Kirkgate they were marched a-right rally round, come listen to me
Locked in a stable for the night, all on a bed of straw
They left ‘em with ale and bread rally round, come listen to me
Says Jack ‘At least we’re warm and fed, the King’ll take care of us now’
Mornin’ come they found ‘em there rally round, come listen to me
They’d sunk right in, were lost for air, all in a bed of straw
Now high on a wall is found rally round, come listen to me
Two skulls of stone starin’ down, look for a bed of straw
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Forgetful Cat
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I agree with those who say that the tale of the 'bed of straw' has the feeling of something made up to explain something that was already there.
I suspect we'll never trace the origins of the skulls, but I do wonder if putting them on a building had any connection with the West Yorkshire tradition of mounting stone heads on buildings. A couple of references below - if you want to explore the subject in detail I recommend John Billingsley's book 'Stony Gaze'.
http://archive.thisisbradford.co.uk/1999/10/20/160520.html
http://www.northernearth.co.uk/permhead.htm
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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Clearly a strong traditional tale of the two men,who appear to have unwittngly taken the kings shilling,so not actually "Pressed" as in the term press ganged,but they had had the shilling pressed into their hand,which in those days was as good as signing the dotted line to say I Join up!
So now the era is 1803-1814,as opposed to 1778-1780,and they werent actually soldiers as such,merely hapless recruits.
Still,if the military HAD commisioned the skulls to be carved at the time then it was either a very poor carving,or it has been under a constant stream of running water,thus making it wear away so much!
This wear and tear is hard to be accounted for ,even on a building thats early Victorian.
As someone has already pointed out the alleyway itself offers good protection from high exposure,and i still hold the belief that the skulls are much much older than the early 19th century.
Perhaps a line to the YAS may also be worth a punt.
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