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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
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3397 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
I could easily date this building as an 1830's purpose built hayloft. there is no way it dates any older and represents the dwelling we see on the sketch. The big lintol indicates a large area for horses and the door above is perfect for loading up the hay in the loft.
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I dunno about this part of the building, Phill. The end wall (around the corner to the left, under the chimney) is much older. I think the wall in your picture is newer and was re-built as workshops when it was all altered. The bricks look similar to those used in the chimney and new roof line, and the windows look 1930s-ish IMHO. The large wood lintel looked like it had been re-used to me when we were there the other week, but it is obviously there for a reason.
I agree that the Crown and Fleece row of buildings are probably 1775ish, and were built as houses, and that they are of a similar design to Hill's. As you say, the end dwelling became the pub which then expanded into next-door, and then had the extension (the bit with Dyson's ad on it) added at the back, and I think this all occured early 1800s.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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I will have to say despite the appearance and age of the skull building, It wasn't there right up until the 1831 map. I don't think one wall on any side of that building pre dates 1831. There is no courtyard between Hills and the skull building. It all must surely point to the fact these were all dwellings there until 1831 as the sketch and maps suggest?
The extension at the back of the pub wasn't there in 1815. That must help us date the Crown and Fleece a little too?
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Si
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I'd think so.
I wish we knew a professional architectural historian! Haven't heard owt from Mr. Cruickshank yet.
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Phill_d
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| Si wrote: |
I'd think so.
I wish we knew a professional architectural historian! Haven't heard owt from Mr. Cruickshank yet. |
Go from the 1815 map, then the 1847 map and look at the sketch Si. It's showing us that skull building and yard wasn't there. It still wasn't there in 1831 yet the pub and hayloft is listed in 1836. That's got to narrow things down to a 5 year period for the skull building construction mate?
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Phill_d
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| Tasa wrote: |
Close-up of Crown Court in 1831, with the courtyard down the side of the skull building with the green gate not shown - is this an omission or was it not there at that time?
Sorry about the quality - the original was very dark.
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I'm glad you picked up on this yard missing in 1831 Tasa. It's got to indicate the skull building is 1831-1836 construction surely?
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LS1
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I wonder if that bricked up archway was a basement window if this was once the back of the building that houses Hills. It's not uncommon for them to look like this.
Some buildings had a basement window and like a space between the street and the window that let the light into the basement.
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Phill_d
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Looking at what we know i'd say the hayloft was built circa 1834 with the general extension of the Crown Inn to the Crown and Fleece. This Landlord guy John Ainley holds the clue to these skulls.
1826 Directory
Crown Inn,John Ainley,3 Crown Street.
1834 Directory
Crown and Fleece,No 3 Crown Street,John Ainley.
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Phill_d
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| LS1 wrote: |
I wonder if that bricked up archway was a basement window if this was once the back of the building that houses Hills. It's not uncommon for them to look like this.
Some buildings had a basement window and like a space between the street and the window that let the light into the basement. |
Look at the map on this page Lee. The bricked up arch is in position No1.
http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1051&StartAtMessage=1300
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cnosni
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Leeds
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
Been busy since Sunday, but here's the map showing the Vicarage dated 1242 - this map has been traced by someone (don't know when) and dates added.
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Tasa any chance you can duplicate this on the resource thread please?
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cnosni
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28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
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2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| Si wrote: |
I'd think so.
I wish we knew a professional architectural historian! Haven't heard owt from Mr. Cruickshank yet. |
Go from the 1815 map, then the 1847 map and look at the sketch Si. It's showing us that skull building and yard wasn't there. It still wasn't there in 1831 yet the pub and hayloft is listed in 1836. That's got to narrow things down to a 5 year period for the skull building construction mate? |
Well id say it shows the yard is missing,but not necessarily the skull building.
Two clues as to the probable existance of the green gate yard before 1847 are the bricked up window on the first floor of Hills,looking towards the pub and of course the external chimney on the same wall of hills.
If Hills was one large building that extended to the chopped off corner in the 1815 and 1831 map then there would have been no need for the window,or the chimney
Also the engraving of the Crown and Fleece Yard,though difficult to date there is a clue,in the ladies dresswear,which is more late Victorian,possibly early Edwardian,which would certainly leave plenty of time for a change into dwellings/workshop.
Lets not forget that we KNOW that the stable was a stable until at least 1886,with the insurance map that Lee found,with this in mind this indicates further the date for the engraving,late Victorian/early Edwardian.
Frankly i think it is difficult to date the stable and skull building as we see them now because they are a mish mash of various alterations over a long period.
What we can try and say is what is the earliest we can date them.
It can be done by an expert eye who can see things we cant.
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
Posted:
328 posts
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| cnosni wrote: |
| Tasa any chance you can duplicate this on the resource thread please? |
Yep - done!
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cnosni
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Leeds
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Phill_d
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The yard doesn't exist on the 1831 map as well as the 1815 map. That's 2 different maps from 2 periods telling us it wasn't there Chris.
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Tasa
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I'm at the Reference Library tonight and can try and find more maps between those periods. Do I have to ask the staff or is there a map index?
Some other things I'll look for:
1. Look at the 1920 YEP article with the C&F Yard engraving on microfilm to see if there's a source or date that wasn't on the cutting I found.
2. More details of occupancy of Crown Court pre-1831
3. More evidence of when John Ainley moved in (some time between 1822 and 1826) - like Phill, I somehow think this man could be connected with the skulls.
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
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23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
I wonder if that bricked up archway was a basement window if this was once the back of the building that houses Hills. It's not uncommon for them to look like this.
Some buildings had a basement window and like a space between the street and the window that let the light into the basement. |
Look at the map on this page Lee. The bricked up arch is in position No1.
http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1051&StartAtMessage=1300 |
Are we not thinking then if it is in position 1 it once might have looked onto a courtyard?
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
I'm at the Reference Library tonight and can try and find more maps between those periods. Do I have to ask the staff or is there a map index?
Some other things I'll look for:
1. Look at the 1920 YEP article with the C&F Yard engraving on microfilm to see if there's a source or date that wasn't on the cutting I found.
2. More details of occupancy of Crown Court pre-1831
3. More evidence of when John Ainley moved in (some time between 1822 and 1826) - like Phill, I somehow think this man could be connected with the skulls.
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Ask the Staff Tasa, not sure if there are any more other than those we saw, but you might find some that are random maps that have been drawn for other purposes.
I was going to try to get down there myself, as I think there is a book that mentions the Skulls legend earlier than 1968 but it's going to be like a needle in a haystack!!
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Si
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Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
I wonder if that bricked up archway was a basement window if this was once the back of the building that houses Hills. It's not uncommon for them to look like this.
Some buildings had a basement window and like a space between the street and the window that let the light into the basement. |
Look at the map on this page Lee. The bricked up arch is in position No1.
http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1051&StartAtMessage=1300 |
Are we not thinking then if it is in position 1 it once might have looked onto a courtyard? |
I still think it's more likely a fireplace/range, Lee. It's built into a chimney breast.
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Tasa wrote: |
I'm at the Reference Library tonight and can try and find more maps between those periods. Do I have to ask the staff or is there a map index?
Some other things I'll look for:
1. Look at the 1920 YEP article with the C&F Yard engraving on microfilm to see if there's a source or date that wasn't on the cutting I found.
2. More details of occupancy of Crown Court pre-1831
3. More evidence of when John Ainley moved in (some time between 1822 and 1826) - like Phill, I somehow think this man could be connected with the skulls.
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Ask the Staff Tasa, not sure if there are any more other than those we saw, but you might find some that are random maps that have been drawn for other purposes.
I was going to try to get down there myself, as I think there is a book that mentions the Skulls legend earlier than 1968 but it's going to be like a needle in a haystack!! |
Take a magnet!!!
That would be a brilliant find, Lee!
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cnosni
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Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Phill_d wrote: |
| The yard doesn't exist on the 1831 map as well as the 1815 map. That's 2 different maps from 2 periods telling us it wasn't there Chris. |
But we know the building at the back of Hills,which adjoins into the green yard was there in both the 1815 and 1831 map.
As the 1886 map shows it was a seperate building to the two premises that Hills have now that front onto Kirkgate.
This part of Hills would appear to be on the 1815 and 1831 map,and this seems to be borne out by the appearance of this building being just a little newer than the Kirkgate facing part of Hills.
So entry must have been required to this building,and perhaps as the only use for this yard is to gain entry to the dwelling, and therefore not a thoroughfare then perhaps its was not deemed important enough for a pre ordnance survey map.
You might like to note the lack of the yard of the Scotsman in 1815 and 1831 as well.
Trying to pin down the age of a second rate out building to a five year,or even ten year period is very difficult.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
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2638 posts
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We have 2 maps showing us the yard and skull building weren't built until after 1831, it was there in 1847 as we have written evidence the Crown Inn didn't expand until after 1826, by 1834 it had expanded into the Crown & Fleece which is exactly the same 1830's period when any new hayloft for the bigger pub would have been built. It seems this Ainley Fellow was a successful businessman. No doubt he had turned a Merchant house into a succesful pub and continued to expand his little empire. I can quiet belief he'd buy a couple of carved skulls and have them paced on his hayloft. Almost like Noel at the New Roscoe has a model of the old pub and other artefacts.
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Phill_d
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Leeds
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21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
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Just because the buildings in Hills premises doesn't have doors onto the yard these days Chris ,It doesn't mean they didn't before. You can ask Andy how the stair lay out shows us you came in from the skull yard. You come down the stairs and are met by a blocked off wall mate. The doors are blocked up and rendered over these days. The green gate yard wasn't needed for access. These were house dwellings. Andy who works there will back me up here. In my mind i'm 99.9% certain that hard facts can pin point this skull building to that 5 year period.
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Tasa
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Headingley, Leeds
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08-Oct-2007 15:41:52
Posted:
328 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| I was going to try to get down there myself, as I think there is a book that mentions the Skulls legend earlier than 1968 but it's going to be like a needle in a haystack!! |
Might see you there then (and for a pint after, if there's time?) - but only one, it's a "school night"!
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Si
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Otley
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10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3397 posts
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OK chaps, I've just applied for membership of The British Brick Society (I know, I know...sad Si.) Maybe they can help.
I can't wait...the evenings are going to just fly by!!!
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| Phill_d wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
I wonder if that bricked up archway was a basement window if this was once the back of the building that houses Hills. It's not uncommon for them to look like this.
Some buildings had a basement window and like a space between the street and the window that let the light into the basement. |
Look at the map on this page Lee. The bricked up arch is in position No1.
http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=1051&StartAtMessage=1300 |
Are we not thinking then if it is in position 1 it once might have looked onto a courtyard? |
I still think it's more likely a fireplace/range, Lee. It's built into a chimney breast.
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Yeah true, but it doesnt look like the other fireplace in the cellar. However it could be as these basements were lived in by the poorest of the poor and had very little space in them. It was a real slum down in those areas I would have though in that area in particular it would have been similar.
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Tasa wrote: |
| LS1 wrote: |
| I was going to try to get down there myself, as I think there is a book that mentions the Skulls legend earlier than 1968 but it's going to be like a needle in a haystack!! |
Might see you there then (and for a pint after, if there's time?) - but only one, it's a "school night"!
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I'll keep my eyes open!
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