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chameleon
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
29-Mar-2007 22:46:49
Posted:
3607 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
Good point drapesy, the yard now is narrow, but it would fit a horse down it I guess.
chameleon. I need to dig out my copy of the 1850 map to compare. My brain is tired and turning to mush!
btw drapesy, yes Central Library, 1886 insurance map. fox and Grapes yard is there! |
Bran 'n mush - brain 'n mush, mush the same! I know what you mean, I come home each day and spend an hour trying to piece together everything which has appeared since yesterday (I've also decided some of our number don't need to sleep!).
The 1850 plan is part of the 'Leeds in Maps folder', take it you have that? I've blown up a few of these to make the area easier to see.
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Brandy
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Location:
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 12:33:58
Posted:
1469 posts
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great work everyone,im sorry i havent been online lately but ive been a bit ill
i was hoping that when i logged in you would have sorted this one out??
only kidding we WILL crack this one i have faith in us all
well ive summoned the energy to write this now im off back to bed to rest lol.
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Phill_d
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
21-Feb-2007 10:52:59
Posted:
2638 posts
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That' an excellent map Lee. Like you my head has turned to Mush trying to solve this, that's why I've given it a rest for a couple of days while I've been working on other stuff. Just what was so special about that skull building? It's the only one marked with a cross, Does this tell us anything? Also it has a broken dotted dividing line making it smaller than what it appears on older maps. There is also a building at the side were the lean too Ladies shack is now.
Hope you get well Brandy b.t.w
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LS1
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Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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I think Phill, I need to go back to that map and see exactly what all those symbols mean. I was getting tired of being there after three hours.
As an aside I go the following from the directories:
1837 - White's directory mentions Crown St and Crown Yard as two areas (I think Crown Yard may have been further down Kirkgate though)
1839 - Kellys mentions the Crown and Fleece at no 19
1849 - Charlton and Archdeacon- 21 Crown Street, "Crown and Fleece" Thos. Walker as propietor.
1851 - Slade and Roebuck - 21 Crown Street, "Crown and Fleece" Thos. Walker as propietor.
1857 - Post Office Directory - 21 Crown Street "Fleece" Thos. Walker.
1861 - Kelly's 21 Crown Street "Fleece" - William Stead
1867 - Kelly's 21 Crown Street "Fleece" - William Stead
1872/3 - Lists Crown Court as a totally seperate street.
Might go back and add the rest to this later, but it gives an idea that over thirty years the directories list is as the Fleece, Crown and Fleece, and also list it as being numbered "backwards", so the information we have really is not that reliable at all given the directories were produced by different companies.
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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Very nice find, Lee.
I hope there is a clear key for that map. D, S&D and PH are self evident, but what does that X signify? Disused? Derelict?
The Crown and Fleece "in-fill" building looks like the right-hand half belongs to the pub (it's where that concreted cellar entrance is) and the left side doesn't.
Also, the skull building and the gable-end building adjoining it are similar widths, yet on the map the dotted line seperates the building 25%/75%? There must have been continuous alterations to that side of Crown Court since 1815 to today.
I think the "brew house" has been replaced since (like most of the north side of the yard.) It must have some connection to the pub. I reckon all the pub's ancillary buildings must have been on that north side (brew-house, stables, hayloft, etc.)
Still doesn't answer why the skulls are on the end though!!!GRRRRR!!!
That's another brain gone to mush, and it's only 8:15!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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PS Re LS1's map. Something funny going on behind Hill's, or is it me? What are those courtyards (black shapes?)
Also, the Assembly Rooms are shown as a printer's. I thought it was Third White Cloth Hall, Assembly Rooms (1777,) working men's institute, Towler's Globe Foundry Warehouse, Hirst's tobacco warehouse (1923,) in that order?
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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Apologies if this has been quoted elsewhere, but in Jackson's Guide to Leeds (1889) it says,
'The First White Cloth Hall [is] hidden behind the windows of a draper's shop, No. 100, Kirkgate, lies in decreptitude, but actuality, one of the primest features of growing Leeds, "built on the site of an ancient hospitium, at the cost of £1000;" the land being given by Lord Irwin.......[opened] 22nd May 1711.......the southern front of the building looked into the Tenter Garth, down to the river. The stone quoins in the building line of Kirkgate yet mark the northern front, and how the little courtyard has since been filled up.'
So, presumably, there was a clear view to the Aire from the Hall in 1711, and it was already derelict in 1889. No wonder nobody can remember before the scaffolding!!!
Jackson's says of The [new] White Cloth Hall and Assembly Rooms,
'....[they are] of the Georgian era........within these walls has been the scene of many of the great political and patriotic movements of Leeds. The hall was opened on the 17th Oct., 1775; the "spacious and admirable" Assembly Rooms at the north end on the 9th June, 1777,.....'
I wonder if any of this is relevant to the skulls?
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Mick_SGC
User
Location:
Chicago!!
Joined on:
20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
Posted:
123 posts
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X marks the spot!!
It is a stable!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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Another quote from Jackson's, about the nearby Parish Church, which Cnosni may find of interest,
'The ancient church, pulled down in 1838, had a beginning before the Norman Conquest, perhaps in the 10th century and the days of King Oulaf, a cross to whose memory was found in the walls........the old church was cruciform, and though of much patchwork, was not without dignity of presence; the new Church is a square block, and seems to have been built in the commercial sense of obtaining "sittings." '
Not a fan, then.
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Folksongman
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Apr-2008 14:59:16
Posted:
5 posts
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Hi all - I had the honour of being interviewed and playing (solo) 'live' on BBC Radio Shropshire's Folk Show last Sunday night - as the topic is 'hot' at present, amongst other things I played 'Bed of Straw' and talked a bit about the ongoing saga here.
it's on their 'listen again' feature here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/music/folk/index.shtml if anyone is interested.
Looking forward to meeting some of you soon at the Palace - cheers - Duncan
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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| Mick_SGC wrote: |
X marks the spot!!
It is a stable! |
How do you know? Tell us!!!
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Mick_SGC
User
Location:
Chicago!!
Joined on:
20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
Posted:
123 posts
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From a Key on a old insurance map!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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Waheyyyyyy! So, according to the story, the skulls were on the right building all the time, albeit much altered.
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Mick_SGC
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Location:
Chicago!!
Joined on:
20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
Posted:
123 posts
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I hope so, it will be best to see the Key on the map in question. But it does look good!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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It does.
Another step in the right direction.
Nice one, Mick!
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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| Mick_SGC wrote: |
| I hope so, it will be best to see the Key on the map in question. But it does look good! |
There isn't one, and the library are not sure how I can get one.
Goad was the company that made them, but it disbanded in the 70's!!!
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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| Folksongman wrote: |
Hi all - I had the honour of being interviewed and playing (solo) 'live' on BBC Radio Shropshire's Folk Show last Sunday night - as the topic is 'hot' at present, amongst other things I played 'Bed of Straw' and talked a bit about the ongoing saga here.
it's on their 'listen again' feature here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/music/folk/index.shtml if anyone is interested.
Looking forward to meeting some of you soon at the Palace - cheers - Duncan |
Hello, Duncan.
See you on Sunday.
I can't find you on that link. Where do I look?
Cheers,
Si
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Mick_SGC
User
Location:
Chicago!!
Joined on:
20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
Posted:
123 posts
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I'm just cross referencing other maps keys and they still say the same, what's next on the agenda?
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Mick_SGC
User
Location:
Chicago!!
Joined on:
20-Mar-2008 19:31:16
Posted:
123 posts
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| LS1 wrote: |
| Mick_SGC wrote: |
| I hope so, it will be best to see the Key on the map in question. But it does look good! |
There isn't one, and the library are not sure how I can get one.
Goad was the company that made them, but it disbanded in the 70's!!! |
Yes, I checked on some Goad maps and X was Stables.
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Steve Jones
User
Location:
Wakefield
Joined on:
18-Jan-2008 19:11:33
Posted:
651 posts
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Hold the fort folks!
A Hospitum?
That is a medieval site where the sick were looked after and/or prayed for. It is highly likely to be the kind of place that would have things like the skulls on it.
I wonder if this is finally the answer to where they originated?
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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I'm wondering why a stables is marked with a "X" from corner to corner, and not the word "stables" or "ST" like other buildings?
I guess it's another link in proving there's some truth in the folklore tale.
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Si
User
Location:
Otley
Joined on:
10-Oct-2007 11:52:40
Posted:
3395 posts
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| Steve Jones wrote: |
Hold the fort folks!
A Hospitum?
That is a medieval site where the sick were looked after and/or prayed for. It is highly likely to be the kind of place that would have things like the skulls on it.
I wonder if this is finally the answer to where they originated? |
That's what I was thinking. Now we just need a medieval builder to ask!!!
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cnosni
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
28-Mar-2007 21:17:06
Posted:
2685 posts
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| Si wrote: |
| Folksongman wrote: |
Hi all - I had the honour of being interviewed and playing (solo) 'live' on BBC Radio Shropshire's Folk Show last Sunday night - as the topic is 'hot' at present, amongst other things I played 'Bed of Straw' and talked a bit about the ongoing saga here.
it's on their 'listen again' feature here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/music/folk/index.shtml if anyone is interested.
Looking forward to meeting some of you soon at the Palace - cheers - Duncan |
Hello, Duncan.
See you on Sunday.
I can't find you on that link. Where do I look?
Cheers,
Si
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Oh nice one si,your coming now then?
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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Well done mick!!!
We need to see a copy of the original map rather than a black copy so we can see what the colours relate to around the buildings in Crown Street / Court.
Are we getting close to som,ething here- Where is the hospitaloruim?
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LS1
User
Location:
Leeds
Joined on:
23-Jul-2007 13:00:30
Posted:
1307 posts
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Sorry meant hospitum, gettin excited now!
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